Is Bag and Tag Necessary?

[kiasam111]

One of the things that we have improved on this year is upping our driver training. As the operator last year, the drive team basically drove on bag and tag night, then drove at the regional (Orlando).

For this reason, it is essential for us to be building a second robot, so that we can continue to train our drivers.

[DjMaddius]

Originally Posted by kiasam111

One of the things that we have improved on this year is upping our driver training. As the operator last year, the drive team basically drove on bag and tag night, then drove at the regional (Orlando).

For this reason, it is essential for us to be building a second robot, so that we can continue to train our drivers.

Our drivers (me being one) haven't gotten a single 'practice' day in years. We don't have time, we build until we are at competition most of the time. Forcing a huge learning curve on me and other drivers at competition.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

I think to summarize what Akash and Lil Lavery are saying, in the current system, Stop Build Day is the end of the design process for good/mediocore teams and a definite design freeze for even the very best.

That's not what I was saying. Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

That's not what I was saying. Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth.

Same actually, no offense.

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

That's not what I was saying. Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

Same actually, no offense.

Please accept my apologies, I did not intend to offend. I should have said "after reading Lavery's and Akash's post, I think." Again, I'm really sorry. I would edit/delete my post but Chief Delphi has that pesky limit on shutting down the edit button.

I maintain my position though. For the very best teams, bag day is the point where no major design changes can be made (except for Pink). The design is, within reason, "locked in" but subject to any numbers of tweaks and improvements.

To a team on the level of my team, bag day is when the design process has to end as we have no practice bot and as I described in an earlier post, limited resources post-season. Would making one bring us to a new level? Yes. Can we make one? Maybe. Hopefully next year we will take on that challenge.

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by btslaser

The point is that stop build is not really a deadline (only for those that can't afford it). The only thing real-life about it is that people have figured out a way around it. Underprivileged, privileged... not sure how that fits in the FIRST mission. After figuring out how important it is we fund and build 2 robots... it just seems unnecessary.

For your argument, I'd really like to point you over to (the now defunct) team 1771. Team 1771 has always operated on a very low budget, often having to build their robots on plywood. They've also always had very few mentors and students on the team. Yet 1771 has always been a dominating force in the south, and has gotten very far in championships. In 2011, they seeded first in their division, with 6 members at the competition. Team 1771 was literally the definition of limited resources, but that didn't stop them from iterating and designing and using the time between competitions to improve. It doesn't take $50 grand to make 2 robots, it takes smart use of your resources and labor.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Wing

For your argument, I'd really like to point you over to (the now defunct) team 1771. Team 1771 has always operated on a very low budget, often having to build their robots on plywood.

1771's 2008 robot is definitely one of the coolest robots I've ever seen. I'd also like to add that wood is also a great building material for FRC. It is strong and reasonably lightweight when used correctly, and has a long history of successful uses in plenty of other structures. If you go back and look 1771 also used really quality stuff, so its not like their budget forced them to buy the junk they sell at Home Depot. Wood don't get no respect!

On topic:

I think the strongest argument for the defined build season is Parkinson's Law: "Work expands so as to fill the time available for it's completion." If there was no build season we would all be frantically working on our robots until 4AM on Thursday, and then everyone would be overtired and cranky and nobody would have any fun at the competition. If nobody is having fun, chances are pretty good no one is getting inspired either.

[F22Rapture]

Originally Posted by Wing

For your argument, I'd really like to point you over to (the now defunct) team 1771.

1771 was disbanded?

They were a pretty awesome team. Here's their robot from last year:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/27736599/FR...s/IMG_0571.JPG

[Squillo]

I have been thinking about this since the OP. I think that a MUCH longer build season would serve the purpose and mission of FIRST best of all, while also eliminating a lot of the "unfairness" AND making things more sane and reasonable for all participants.

What if they announced the game in May (or September)? But, unlike VEX, did not have any official competitions until the 6-week competition period, as now?

Here are some of the advantages I see:
- Teams could have time to really carefully analyze and design their robots; do more math, physics and design work. Instead of having to rush that into an insanely short time span.

- Teams could probably attract many more students, including some who are not already 'nerds' but might want to TRY or EXPLORE STEM (we actually have a lot of those students, and we pride ourselves on introducing them to engineering and programming, and inspiring some to continue in those fields), but simply aren't willing to devote their 'entire life' to it for a 6 or 12 week period. Students who also want to play sports, do plays, have a social life, work on their studies or art or whatever. They - and the rest of us - could 'do robotics' just 2 or 3 days a week, and still make a meaningful contribution.

- Ditto for mentors who just don't have the concentrated time available but would still like to help 1 or 2 days/week, or who might have a vacation or funeral or something else scheduled, or arise, during a shorter build season. Or teachers who might happen to have a shorter build season come during finals, or when there are other school obligations.

- There would be time to actually TEACH the newer students things, and then have them practice their skills and build the robot. We find that often, because of the time crunch, the more experienced students and mentors end up doing things, with the newer students just watching, except for the occasional "drill this hole" or "cut this slot". Wiring, especially, tends to be done under a huge rush, so it's not possible for very many students to actually get a substantial amount of hands-on training.

- Same for the analysis/design process. It has to be done in a week or two, so the students who can only come a day or two every week don't get to participate much.

- We would not get as STRESSED, SICK, and otherwise fried. We could pace ourselves and do a MUCH better job educating and motivating the students, build better robots, and have a higher level of competition (without quite so many 'dead on the field' or uncompleted robots, don't you think?).

- It would even out the "unfairness" for teams who compete in week 1 vs week 6. STOP BUILD could be right before the first competition, WITHOUT any 'withholding' or any work at all on the robot after stop build. It could be a HARD 'stop build'. The only advantage later competitors would have would be having watched some matches.

- It would also even out the "unfairness" for teams who have to ship their robot to compete, vs. driving to competitions (as compared to having no 'stop build' at all, as was proposed). EVERYONE would stop at the same time, whether you are in Australia (Hi, 3132!!) or just down the road from your competition venue. Ditto for teams that have to have all sorts of materials shipped in.

- It would allow teams much more flexibility in how they structure their program, how they allocate their time (design for 6 months and build in 3? Design for a month, build for 4, then test and practice for 4? the variations are endless...). It would be more like the real world. I can't think of a situation where a machine this complex has to be designed, built, programmed, tested, and shipped in 6 weeks.

- It would help small teams, who don't have the manpower to have separate sub-teams just for building the field elements, preparing the Chairman's Award submission, building, wiring and programming. Of course, there will always be some inherent inequalities, but this would give the rookies, teams with limited resources, etc. at least a chance.

- It would keep kids engaged in and excited about STEM all year round.

WHAT IS THE DOWNSIDE???? Seriously, why hasn't this been considered?

C.

[makahn64]

I agree with this 100%. FRC should show a more realistic view of the engineering process with brainstorming, designing, planning, prototyping etc. getting more than a week or two before the need to "just build it" takes over.

There should definitely be a deadline for stopping build otherwise teams will dawdle. But why not a 12 week build? Six is nuts and takes a lot of my personal time and frankly too much of my work time away. Many of us smaller teams do not have the mentor resources to spread the pain, either.

Originally Posted by Squillo

I have been thinking about this since the OP. I think that a MUCH longer build season would serve the purpose and mission of FIRST best of all, while also eliminating a lot of the "unfairness" AND making things more sane and reasonable for all participants.

What if they announced the game in May (or September)? But, unlike VEX, did not have any official competitions until the 6-week competition period, as now?
NSIDE???? Seriously, why hasn't this been considered?

C.

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by makahn64

I agree with this 100%. FRC should show a more realistic view of the engineering process with brainstorming, designing, planning, prototyping etc. getting more than a week or two before the need to "just build it" takes over...Six is nuts and takes a lot of my personal time.

I'm sorry, but this can't possibly be more wrong. Yes, six weeks is a short period. Yes, more time would be wonderful. But where's the challenge in that? If you execute it correctly, six weeks can easily fit the full engineering process. You just have to set deadlines AND STICK TO THEM.
As well, there is no restriction on what you do during off season to solve the "engineering process" problem. There are many things that generally don't change season to season. You know that your robot will have to drive. You know that, given FIRST history, there will be some sort of object to manipulate. So prototype and research whatever you can in the off season, and get an accelerated start when season comes around.

As for your statement "Six is nuts and takes a lot of my personal time", why would 12 weeks take any less time? If anything, I'd expect it would take about double the amount of time...

[makahn64]

6 weeks X 10 hours per week with students = 60 hours total.

Less than one work week where I live. Hardly time for a full engineering cycle (maybe we're just slow in Silicon Valley). Sure, this does not include the extra time mentors spend on our own, but this is the time we have to teach and mentor the kids. I guess if we told our students to forget their homework (who needs AP Calc or Physics anyway), skip sports and other activities we could have them for more time, but we chose not to.

We do a LOT of prep in the off season. But outside the drive base (which may or may not be the same YoY) there is only so much you can really do. And the kids tend to burn out from the build season and are a lot less interested in off-season work since they know what is coming.

So I guess the fact that we have a competition robot in the bag, and a practice robot within 4 hours of being ready run means we don't know how to MAKE SCHEDULES AND STICK TO THEM, huh?

After 25 years of developing products and running teams, I'm pretty well versed as to when proper design does not fit the schedule. Yeah, we made our schedule, but it did not represent good engineering practices by any means. You can't do that in 60 hours.

Originally Posted by CalTran

I'm sorry, but this can't possibly be more wrong. Yes, six weeks is a short period. Yes, more time would be wonderful. But where's the challenge in that? If you execute it correctly, six weeks can easily fit the full engineering process. You just have to set deadlines AND STICK TO THEM.
As well, there is no restriction on what you do during off season to solve the "engineering process" problem. There are many things that generally don't change season to season. You know that your robot will have to drive. You know that, given FIRST history, there will be some sort of object to manipulate. So prototype and research whatever you can in the off season, and get an accelerated start when season comes around.

As for your statement "Six is nuts and takes a lot of my personal time", why would 12 weeks take any less time? If anything, I'd expect it would take about double the amount of time...

[pfreivald]

10 hours a week? The last six days of build, we put in 100...

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by makahn64

6 weeks X 10 hours per week with students = 60 hours total...

After 25 years of developing products and running teams, I'm pretty well versed as to when proper design does not fit the schedule. Yeah, we made our schedule, but it did not represent good engineering practices by any means. You can't do that in 60 hours.

I fully agree. 60 hours is nowhere near enough. How do you manage to schedule so little time? Do you meet only during school or something? Many teams I know put in almost ten hours on Saturday alone.

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by F22Rapture

1771 was disbanded?

They were a pretty awesome team. Here's their robot from last year:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/27736599/FR...s/IMG_0571.JPG

Fear not, for their students and mentors now are with 4509, another high school in their area!

from that picture, you can see a beautiful robot, but if you look closely, you can see that it's simple and not made from expensive materials. Every team can be effective.