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Unread 13-03-2013, 15:33
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Level 3 Point Upgrade for Champs?

Hello Everyone,

It has become very apparent to me over the last few weeks that a level 3 climb, with or without scoring the colored discs, can easily be outscored. Many teams that can climb to level 3 dedicated their entire build season just to being able to climb due to its difficulty. There are a handful of teams that can easily climb and shoot, like 1114, 148, etc. but many non-powerhouse teams that climb can only climb.

the GDC has also had many rule updates that have almost completely changed the game, like the rule update about the discs being thrown by feeders, and the loading zone fouls. So I was wondering what we think the GDC will do in preparation for Championships. I believe they said that they might increase the point value for a level 3 climb, and if they do I think it will be 50 or 60 points, just to make climbing worth the time and effort it takes.

But I posted this here becuase I wanna know what you guys think.
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Unread 13-03-2013, 15:42
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Re: Level 3 Point Upgrade for Champs?

They can only adjust each levels worth by 10 points so the max would be 40 and the minimum would to 20 for level three
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Unread 13-03-2013, 15:44
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Re: Level 3 Point Upgrade for Champs?

I'd rather see them reduce the points for the first rung.
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Unread 13-03-2013, 15:45
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Re: Level 3 Point Upgrade for Champs?

I've never been of the opinion that end-game should be worth the same as the main autonomous and teleop game. I like the point value where its at right now. End game is big, but not big enough to win matches with no autonomous and teleop scoring in most elimination matches. 30 points is equivalent to 10 discs in the high goal during teleop. I feel like this is a fair representation of how difficult it is to shoot a disc vs climb to the top.
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Unread 13-03-2013, 15:48
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Re: Level 3 Point Upgrade for Champs?

It should stay the same.

Like we do year in and year out, we live and die by our decisions on what we brainstorm and build.
Should've could've would've.

The majority of teams have yet to demonstrate scoring 50 points in a match by themselves.......which is something a dedicated climber/dumper could achieve.
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Unread 13-03-2013, 15:50
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Re: Level 3 Point Upgrade for Champs?

While I agree that Level 3 climbing seems underpointed vs. its difficulty, I don't think the difference in value between climbing and disc scoring is great enough to warrant any scoring changes. Even though there is a rule allowing it in the manual, I would imagine the FRC community (or at least many of its members on this forum) would be furious. Also, remember that most Level 3 climbers have room to improve by scoring 20 points of dumpable pyramid discs.
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Unread 13-03-2013, 15:51
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Re: Level 3 Point Upgrade for Champs?

I could definitely see them increasing the points for climbing, if only to increase the diversity of what's on the field. From everything I've seen, climbing is probably the hardest challenge I've seen in FRC, and one of the coolest to see it work correctly! I want to see climbing on Einstein... but the way matches are going right now, it seems like shooting typically earns you more points - we see alliances whose first two picks are shooters beating alliances who pair up a shooter with a climber more often than we see the alliance with a dedicated climber winning.
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Unread 13-03-2013, 15:56
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Re: Level 3 Point Upgrade for Champs?

I'll be honest, I don't even like that they allow themselves the option of changing the points at CMP. The beauty of this competition is we all start from the same set of rules and decide our strategies from there. We then have to either adapt to changing circumstances (rebuild per 67 in 2009) or deal with it.

Climbers without shooters knew they were capped at earning 30 points. Shooters knew they would be more variable in their points and more susceptible to defense. These are called tradeoffs and we all had to make them. We made our bed, now we have to lay in it.


I hope the GDC doesn't touch the scoring.
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Unread 13-03-2013, 16:03
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Re: Level 3 Point Upgrade for Champs?

Edit: incorrect information... See Nuttyman54 post #16.
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Last edited by BJC : 13-03-2013 at 17:58. Reason: Incorrect info
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Unread 13-03-2013, 16:08
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Re: Level 3 Point Upgrade for Champs?

I think it's too early to tell. Many teams are still ironing out climbing, so it's not as common to see.

A team with 2 climber (with one that can dump) can score 80pts now. If they increase the value from 30 to 40, they are at 100 points.

Last years end game, was easier, but less valuable since points were colaborative, each robot could contribute 10 (or 13.33 points for a triple). This year each team can contribute 10 easily, or 30 with good design (and another 20 within arms reach). I think the increase this year pretty effectively offsets the higher scoring capacity of the game piece, but not enough people can climb (yet?).

An alliance of 2 decent shooters (even just for auton) that can climb, and some dumping ability, and a defender with auton and hang can rack up a whopping 144pts (two climbs, one hang, four pyramid discs, and nine auton shots, no teleop shots).

Such an alliance would not be easy to beat, without scoring a single teleop disc.
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Unread 13-03-2013, 16:11
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Re: Level 3 Point Upgrade for Champs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
I'll be honest, I don't even like that they allow themselves the option of changing the points at CMP. The beauty of this competition is we all start from the same set of rules and decide our strategies from there. We then have to either adapt to changing circumstances (rebuild per 67 in 2009) or deal with it.

Climbers without shooters knew they were capped at earning 30 points. Shooters knew they would be more variable in their points and more susceptible to defense. These are called tradeoffs and we all had to make them. We made our bed, now we have to lay in it.


I hope the GDC doesn't touch the scoring.
+1
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Unread 13-03-2013, 16:13
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Re: Level 3 Point Upgrade for Champs?

Off the top of my head, 1114 has a VERY fast 30 point climber and 179 climbs for 20 and dumps colored disks, and they've both won regionals. I also saw 2 dedicated climbers be high seeds at GSR (213 and 61) with 61 making the finals as an alliance captain. Obviously I didn't hit all the good climbers, so I think climbing will definitely be playing a big role in matches come April.

I would also agree that hanging on the first bar is somewhat overpowered. It didn't seem that way at the start, but I realized that 3 10 point hangs just don't seem equal in difficulty to 1 30 point climb. I think it should be worth somewhere in-between 5-10 points.
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Unread 13-03-2013, 16:14
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Re: Level 3 Point Upgrade for Champs?

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Originally Posted by PVCpirate View Post
Off the top of my head, 1114 has a VERY fast 30 point climber and 179 climbs for 20 and dumps colored disks, and they've both won regionals. I also saw 2 dedicated climbers be high seeds at GSR (213 and 61) with 61 making the finals as an alliance captain. Obviously I didn't hit all the good climbers, so I think climbing will definitely be playing a big role in matches come April.

I would also agree that hanging on the first bar is somewhat overpowered. It didn't seem that way at the start, but I realized that 3 10 point hangs just don't seem equal in difficulty to 1 30 point climb. I think it should be worth somewhere in-between 5-10 points.
179 has not won a regional. 125/4451/233 knocked them out in the semis in Orlando before they, in turn, were eliminated by 744/79/1772.
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Unread 13-03-2013, 16:17
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Re: Level 3 Point Upgrade for Champs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
179 has not won a regional. 125/4451/233 knocked them out in the semis in Orlando before they, in turn, were eliminated by 744/79/1772.
Oh 79 not 179. Guess I was wrong on that one. Still, I think climbers have shown that they can be useful enough that we'll see at least one on Einstein.
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Unread 13-03-2013, 16:22
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Re: Level 3 Point Upgrade for Champs?

Hey I know - let's make all non 30-point climbers blindfold their drivers for the last 30 seconds of the match!
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