The Meaning of FIRST

[Bill_B]

I think this is the source of the confusion for the OP

Originally Posted by WMFlip16

Hello,

I am a junior on team 2137 and have been involved in FIRST since I was on an FLL team in 2008. ...

Sincerely, A Peeved Programmer

One part of FIRST does emphasize and require that the students do the work- The FLL. The transition to FRC can be borderline traumatic as is evident in the opening post. Chief Delphi postings deal mainly with FRC topics and are made by many who have only passing acquaintance with FLL and its core values. Those posting who do have FLL experience are generally mindful of the philosophical and practical differences between the programs. In the absence of specific statements from FIRST about the difference, we are all left with the problem of dealing with varying levels of expectation about students' participation from all of us. Some are better at it than others, like any other human activity.

I hope my explanation helps those who read it to consider that there may be explanations about how FRC teams operate that are not immediately apparent.

[Calvin Hartley]

Originally Posted by Bill_B

I think this is the source of the confusion for the OP

I'd like to expound on this, as I can relate. Heavily. I participated in FLL for 6 years before joining my FRC team. Not only that, but my FLL team was very successful. We got better and better over the years too. By our last season we decided to go to the World Festival. So we did, we won the State Championship and got to go to Worlds. All this to say that our coaches and mentors did nothing. After this I jumped into FRC. I tried to keep an open mind and not compare it to FLL, but even that as hard. There were times I would get frustrated with how much the mentors did. By now I've gotten used to it (mostly).

I think the key is to understand the difference between the programs. FLL is "designed to get kids excited about engineering and technology*". The tools FLL uses are also built for kids to use. I think at their age, if they weren't doing the work they probably wouldn't get much out of it. I know I wouldn't have. FRC is vastly different, it has much more advanced machines, older students, and a far different mentor-student interaction. FRC's goal is to inspire, regardless of how the inspiration comes about. They strive to inspire "by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs.**" If an FRC mentor has to make a part to inspire a student, that's fine. If the student can then make a part himself, that's great!

To summarize, I think FLL is to get kids excited. "This is fun!!" FRC is to get them inspired. "Look at what we/I can do."

Well I hope this post makes some sense, it's all just my thoughts and opinions. Hope it helps.
-Calvin

*From the FLL website.

**From the FRC website.

[robonerd]

Forgive me if I step out of bounds here, but I think it's extremely rude to judge a team so hastily based on a few members and one conversation. You do not know the team or how they operate.

Mentors are incredibly important to FIRST because they can teach and inspire the students. If they "let the students do everything", chances are the students aren't going to learn and understand what they could have done better. I'm not saying any form of mentoring style is better than another, because everything changes on a case to case basis. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't judge a team for a mentor's work. You have no way of knowing how much effort, or how little, student members put in.

[JM033]

Originally Posted by robonerd

Forgive me if I step out of bounds here, but I think it's extremely rude to judge a team so hastily based on a few members and one conversation. You do not know the team or how they operate.

I agree with you that one shouldn't shouldn't judge a team based on a few members convos etc, but, if you were in my position and asked a similar question to the same team, and had the same response. -Wouldn't you just wonder like I did?

[bduddy]

Every time one of these topics comes up, I deeply regret that I am not capable of drawing my many, many thoughts and emotions on this topic into a coherent post. The one thing I'd like to say is this: A FIRST team can and should provide way, way more than just "inspiration". Defending accusations like this with "well, I think they're still inspiring their students, so it's OK" is a massive cop-out.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by bduddy

Every time one of these topics comes up, I deeply regret that I am not capable of drawing my many, many thoughts and emotions on this topic into a coherent post. The one thing I'd like to say is this: A FIRST team can and should provide way, way more than just "inspiration". Defending accusations like this with "well, I think they're still inspiring their students, so it's OK" is a massive cop-out.

I don't think its a cop out at all. All those other things that FIRST teams can and should and do use to provide the inspiration are great and important. But the specifics are irrelevant so long as the ARE inspiring.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by bduddy

Defending accusations like this with "well, I think they're still inspiring their students, so it's OK" is a massive cop-out.

Since the title of this thread is "The Meaning of FIRST", I don't think that's even a minor cop-out. FIRST is about inspiration. Check out its mission:

Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership.

You can find that on the FIRST web site.

I've observed a few teams with extremely strong mentor involvement in all parts of the team. One such team struck me a week ago as having an unusually high fraction of the people working on the robot being well past high school. I can imagine that some people view that as undesireable. But do you want to know that team is viewed by FIRST? The Chairman's Award banners they have received say that FIRST likes what they do, and that they represent a model for other teams to emulate.

[MooreteP]

I'd like to address the elephant in the room:
Those elite teams that consistently build and program awesome robots that make some people think, "Oh why bother competing with a robot that was obviously made by professional engineers."

I have been doing this since 1998 and walking through the pits is still my favorite activity. I like to note who is surrounding the robot and touching, disassembling, reconstructing, machining, and programming. You can tell by the level of student participation how well the mentors have trained and passed off the reigns through their educating and inspiring of their proteges.
You reap what you sow.

It really isn't about the robot, but there is a wide spectrum of mentor control exhibited in the pits.

118: Watching the students in Hartford last year tear down and rebuild their robot. It was almost completely student driven with mentors only advising.

254: Sitting next to the Einstein Field in 2011 with their student programmer rapt in his attention as to how well his autonomous was working and if he should tweak it further.

1717: Riding to the airport after St. Louis last year and learning that their team is all seniors who have been trained and progressed through three previous years of training for the eligibility to create a robot for each season.

177: I check them out every year as I am fascinated by their consistent success. Driver training is essential to them. Their mentors are very good about the students owning the design and operation.

Each team, like every family, is unique in its own way.

Some mentors volunteer their precious free time and just want to help put out a respectable product and may have to exert more control than they like to complete the project.
Other mentors are part of a comprehensive program that successfully trains and develops the talents of students over four years.
Each of them sincerely believe in the meaning of FIRST.

So take some time, check out each robot in their pit. Respect and forgive the mentors who are doing the best they can with what they have, and admire those who have developed competent teams wherein the students were able to develop talents and skills under their auspices

In the end, at the competitions, all of the students see a panoply of teams, a variety of approaches, and are witness to the different solutions created to solve a common problem.

This will inspire them in the future as it demonstrates the possible.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Since the title of this thread is "The Meaning of FIRST", I don't think that's even a minor cop-out. FIRST is about inspiration. Check out its mission:

Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership.

You can find that on the FIRST web site.

I've observed a few teams with extremely strong mentor involvement in all parts of the team. One such team struck me a week ago as having an unusually high fraction of the people working on the robot being well past high school. I can imagine that some people view that as undesireable. But do you want to know that team is viewed by FIRST? The Chairman's Award banners they have received say that FIRST likes what they do, and that they represent a model for other teams to emulate.

My ideals of what FIRST should be almost certainly do not match those of the FIRST leadership. I would suspect, in fact, that that applies to many here. No matter what they say, I will continue to believe that if a community is spending many thousands of dollars per year, the time and energy of many students, teachers, and mentors, the limited resources of a school, and much more into a robotics team, and all it is or is hoping to get out of it is to "inspire" some students, then something is very wrong.

I agree that, in most cases, targeting specific teams with circumstantial evidence (which luckily doesn't happen too much around here) helps no one. As a Bay Area resident I've heard plenty of stories about how 254's mentors never let students touch the robot except for drive practice, and I've also heard from a former 254 member that their mentors were useless and never did anything. Almost certainly, neither is the exact truth, just like all of the half-heard stories or rumors that occasionally pop up here and elsewhere.

[MooreteP]

Originally Posted by bduddy

My ideals of what FIRST should be almost certainly do not match those of the FIRST leadership. I would suspect, in fact, that that applies to many here. No matter what they say, I will continue to believe that if a community is spending many thousands of dollars per year, the time and energy of many students, teachers, and mentors, the limited resources of a school, and much more into a robotics team, and all it is or is hoping to get out of it is to "inspire" some students, then something is very wrong.

I agree that, in most cases, targeting specific teams with circumstantial evidence (which luckily doesn't happen too much around here) helps no one. As a Bay Area resident I've heard plenty of stories about how 254's mentors never let students touch the robot except for drive practice, and I've also heard from a former 254 member that their mentors were useless and never did anything. Almost certainly, neither is the exact truth, just like all of the half-heard stories or rumors that occasionally pop up here and elsewhere.

Almost certainly do not match? That is some serious hyperbole, my friend.

So, could you be more specific about what your ideals of FIRST are, and why the almost certainly do not match those of the "FIRST leadership"?

There is the vague notion of what "inspiration" really means in the context of FIRST.
Definition: The process of being mentally stimulated to do or feel something, especially to do something creative.
Why do you demean this ideal?

How about Recognition? Helping our world to recognize the value of the engineering and the other skills like marketing, fundraising, and project management that are essential to the creation of an improved society.

You're entitled to your negative opinion, but could you be more specific about what is really eating at you? What do you see as being "very wrong"?

How much money does your local school and community devote to athletic sports activities? Much less than they devote to robotics is my guess. What is the point of this expenditure, other than to provide bread and circuses for the masses. At least in FIRST, all of the students stand a better chance of going professional.
(BTW, I have an awesome bracket for the NCAA)

I agree with you that targeting this thread with no substantive evidence or even an alternative idea "helps no one".

[Tem1514 Mentor]

But really hasn't the meaning already been found, and that is

wait for it;






42


Sorry but I just had to.

[MooreteP]

And I thank you for that.

[Bill_B]

Originally Posted by Tem1514 Mentor

But really hasn't the meaning already been found, and that is

wait for it;






42


Sorry but I just had to.

And we're now engaged in rebuilding the computer so that we can find the question.

[sabruce01]

Man-o-man....I'm not getting involved here. Last time I was in this discussion, my "reputation" was blasted off the board. (hence the little red dots by my name) All I will say is as a mentor I would MUCH rather teach a student than "inspire" a student. I've seen extreme cases of both scenarios. I've seen teams with NO leadership, and I've seen teams where the students are not even in the pits. But hey...whatever floats your boat. I'm not going to get flamed again for this argument.

I believe that if you give a man a fish, he eats for a day. If you teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime.

[robonerd]

Originally Posted by JM033

I agree with you that one shouldn't shouldn't judge a team based on a few members convos etc, but, if you were in my position and asked a similar question to the same team, and had the same response. -Wouldn't you just wonder like I did?

Wonder? Absolutely. But I don't think it's fair to make any accusations.