Award Eligibility and Judging

[Alex2614]

So after having been to several FRC events over the past several years, I have noticed a couple schools of thought when it comes to awards.

Some judges feel tht if a team wins an award on Friday of any kind, that makes them intelligible for awards like Engineering Inspiration and Chairmans.

On the other hand, some feel that the awards should be spread out across Friday and Saturday, but Engineering Inspiration, Chairmans, and Rookie All-Star are not included in that.

What do you think? If a team wins an award on Friday, should that make them intelligible for Engineering Inspiration or Chairmans? Or not? Just curious what other people out there think.

[kjohnson]

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=115689

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

So after having been to several FRC events over the past several years, I have noticed a couple schools of thought when it comes to awards.

Some judges feel tht if a team wins an award on Friday of any kind, that makes them intelligible for awards like Engineering Inspiration and Chairmans.

On the other hand, some feel that the awards should be spread out across Friday and Saturday, but Engineering Inspiration, Chairmans, and Rookie All-Star are not included in that.

What do you think? If a team wins an award on Friday, should that make them intelligible for Engineering Inspiration or Chairmans? Or not? Just curious what other people out there think.

I'm pretty sure there aren't any judges that think a Friday award "disqualifies" a team from the big awards on Saturday. I've talked to Volunteer coordinators and Judge Advisors, and I haven't heard any of them say anything like that. Just looking at some of the big Lone Star and Alamo teams, there's several that have won a Friday award and gone on to win EI or RCA.

So unless you have some sort of actual evidence* that judges are actually following that process, I think this is a pointless thread that's only going to attract griping, rumors, and various posts in the line of: "We won team spirit, and we totally should have won RCA, but we didn't!".



*Actual evidence would be something on the order of a judge telling you "We didn't give a team the RCA because they'd already won Team Spirit." Think about how crazy and unlikely that sentence sounds.

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I'm pretty sure there aren't any judges that think a Friday award "disqualifies" a team from the big awards on Saturday. I've talked to Volunteer coordinators and Judge Advisors, and I haven't heard any of them say anything like that. Just looking at some of the big Lone Star and Alamo teams, there's several that have won a Friday award and gone on to win EI or RCA.

So unless you have some sort of actual evidence* that judges are actually following that process, I think this is a pointless thread that's only going to attract griping, rumors, and various posts in the line of: "We won team spirit, and we totally should have won RCA, but we didn't!".

*Actual evidence would be something on the order of a judge telling you "We didn't give a team the RCA because they'd already won Team Spirit." Think about how crazy and unlikely that sentence sounds.

My evidence is the judges that I have talked to and they have said just that. One judge, in fact, said that she had to convince the other judges that a team SHOULD be eligible for Engineering Inspiration despite the fact that they had won an award on Friday, which went against the whole panel of judges' mindset. This has happened at a couple different events. We have also had a judge tell us directly that we didn't win Engineering Inspiration because we won a tech award on Friday. On the other hand, we have won both at different events and different judges seem to think differently.

I'm not being bitter about it. I'm just asking whether or not people agree with this mindset. I don't mind if we don't win certain awards, so please don't take it in that direction.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

My evidence is the judges that I have talked to and they have said just that. One judge, in fact, said that she had to convince the other judges that a team SHOULD be eligible for Engineering Inspiration despite the fact that they had won an award on Friday, which went against the whole panel of judges' mindset. This has happened at a couple different events. We have also had a judge tell us directly that we didn't win Engineering Inspiration because we won a tech award on Friday. On the other hand, we have won both at different events and different judges seem to think differently.

I'm not being bitter about it. I'm just asking whether or not people agree with this mindset. I don't mind if we don't win certain awards, so please don't take it in that direction.

I'm.. doubtful. But if that IS happening, it's something that should be addressed with the Regional Director and Judge Advisor, because it almost certainly isn't how things are supposed to work. Or, at least, I don't think it is, and I'm fairly confident most teams would agree that a Friday Tech award shouldn't take you out of the running of a Saturday qualifying award. And the regional should certainly take into account the opinions of the teams that are attending it.

Ultimately the judges will hand out awards however they deem to, but the RD and JA have a fair bit of influence in the process, if not the final decisions. I would hope the RD would listen if enough teams point out the silliness of disqualifying an excellent team from EI simply because they won a tech award on Friday.

[Grim Tuesday]

Alex,

I think what we're seeing here is something that is very real. In the thread I started, many people were willing to dismiss the claim entirely based on their experience and that makes sense - the claim that a Friday award disqualifies for a Saturday one is based on your (and my) personal experience. Maybe, however, it is different at different regional's; here is where the problem lies.

I have never been told by a judge that we were made ineligible for a Saturday award because of a Friday one.

My personal theory however, is that at some regional's, the Judges will take the philosophy of 'these are the teams deserving of awards, how do we fit them into the awards we can give them.'

And it may just be coincidence that they turn out this way. However, I think standardizing judging procedures (and telling teams what these procedures are) would be a step in the right direction for transparency.

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

Alex,
I think what we're seeing here is something that is very real. In the thread I started, many people were willing to dismiss the claim entirely based on their experience and that makes sense - the claim that a Friday award disqualifies for a Saturday one is based on your (and my) personal experience. Maybe, however, it is different at different regional's; here is where the problem lies.

I have never been told by a judge that we were made ineligible for a Saturday award because of a Friday one.

My personal theory however, is that at some regional's, the Judges will take the philosophy of 'these are the teams deserving of awards, how do we fit them into the awards we can give them.'

And it may just be coincidence that they turn out this way. However, I think standardizing judging procedures (and telling teams what these procedures are) would be a step in the right direction for transparency.

I agree wholeheartedly. Thank you for your insight and agreement! The comment you made in your thread about kids getting "disappointed" about Friday awards is very real and I have seen it first-hand.

According to the judge I mentioned above, FIRST has "recommended" the mindset that Friday awards and Saturday qualifying awards should NOT be separated, and that teams SHOULDN'T win both. However, I think many people disagree with that mindset.

I have to say though, that I apologize for not doing a forum search before I started this thread, or I would have posted this in your thread.

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I'm.. doubtful. But if that IS happening, it's something that should be addressed with the Regional Director and Judge Advisor, because it almost certainly isn't how things are supposed to work. Or, at least, I don't think it is, and I'm fairly confident most teams would agree that a Friday Tech award shouldn't take you out of the running of a Saturday qualifying award. And the regional should certainly take into account the opinions of the teams that are attending it.

Ultimately the judges will hand out awards however they deem to, but the RD and JA have a fair bit of influence in the process, if not the final decisions. I would hope the RD would listen if enough teams point out the silliness of disqualifying an excellent team from EI simply because they won a tech award on Friday.

I hate to break it to you, but at least in some of the events I have attended, this is exactly what is going on. Everything you have mentioned here is happening, unfortunately, and that is what Grim Tuesday and I feel needs to change.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

I hate to break it to you, but at least in some of the events I have attended, this is exactly what is going on. Everything you have mentioned here is happening, unfortunately, and that is what Grim Tuesday and I feel needs to change.

I would suggest that if something like that is happening, your team can vote with its feet and attend another regional. I'd also let the RD know you're not coming back because you don't feel you have a fair chance at winning awards due to a judging process than penalizes your team for winning technical awards and Friday awards. It's nothing but the truth, and one would hope the RD would look into things if enough teams brought similar complaints.