Using Discs to Block Full Court Shooters

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

Looks like a good one for Q&A. Posted:

Q623:
Do DISCS under the active control of a ROBOT count towards the limits defined by the PLAYING CONFIGURATION? STARTING CONFIGURATION?

You little... Spoilsport!

In all seriousness, I think this would have been a pretty good YMTC topic, and definitely a good one for Q&A to answer. IMO, right now, there is nothing forbidding this strategy. After Q&A speaks, there may be an interpretation or rule to do that--but if they don't put one out now, there may be some few disc-type blockers popping up this weekend from alert competitors.

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by EricH

You little... Spoilsport!

In all seriousness, I think this would have been a pretty good YMTC topic, and definitely a good one for Q&A to answer. IMO, right now, there is nothing forbidding this strategy. After Q&A speaks, there may be an interpretation or rule to do that--but if they don't put one out now, there may be some few disc-type blockers popping up this weekend from alert competitors.

I've taken your signature to heart!

Though given how slow the GDC has been with Q&A this late in the season, the YMTC option may be the faster one

[efoote868]

Only issue I can think of is if the disc you're holding breaks, Refs might not like you destroying game pieces.

[TheMadCADer]

Originally Posted by efoote868

Only issue I can think of is if the disc you're holding breaks, Refs might not like you destroying game pieces.

This brings up a good question, who is destroying the disc? The robot holding it, or the robot shooting discs at it at a very high velocity? I think the burden falls on the full court shooter to not shoot at things that they shouldn't shoot at.

Then G18-1 exists...

[orangemoore]

Originally Posted by efoote868

Only issue I can think of is if the disc you're holding breaks, Refs might not like you destroying game pieces.

I know what you mean about how the Field Reset Crew doesn't like Frisbees being destroyed.

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by CalTran

It's an interesting concept, and I must say that when I read the title of the thread, I thought you were talking about using discs in a "PULL!" fashion!

I'm not sure how the ruling would go on this one, but from a quick skim I would say that it'd be a legal idea.

I can tell I've been missing being involved with a team, because since kickoff I've been thinking "How would I play this game, if I had to play this game." It doesn't help that this is probably the coolest FRC game in my ten year's of FIRST involvement. The frisbees just look so much like Star Wars laser blasts when viewed edge-on.

Anyway, I was thinking about fans, and recall seeing some posts about their effectiveness... and figure they might have an impact on an FCS... as the shooter has to be lined up almost perfectly to hit... then I started thinking about how I'd get past a "blocker" with an FCS robot (shooting outside the arena, and banking the shot back in, perhaps?)

But in reality, the real key is to use a #3 pick to protect the FCS and keep the blocker "out of their face", so that even an 84" extension isn't quite enough.

But using discs to add to the height and width of a blocker robot would make the #3 pick's job of protecting the FCS even tougher.

So I figured I'd put the idea out there... I don't know if anyone has tried it yet this season, but I'd be delighted if I saw it "pop up" at Championships.

Jason

P.S. Yeah... you'd likely have to sacrifice three discs in auto to make it worthwhile... but if your shooter isn't that great anyway....

[Gregor]

Most successful elimination alliances will have every robot score at least 18 points in autonomous. This means that you cannot use the pre-loaded disks as a blocker. It is still possible, but it means you need to figure out a way to get disks up from the feeder slot to 90".

Also, I've not seen a FCS that was able to shoot over a 84" blocker. Some can shooter over 60" blockers, so a 66" blocker might be more useful.

[Woolly]

Well, hey, if you already have the discs at 90", what would it take to be able to kick them out into the pyramid goal reliably?

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by Woolly

Well, hey, if you already have the discs at 90", what would it take to be able to kick them out into the pyramid goal reliably?

Probably the difficulty in getting a colored disc into a stable gripper from a hp slot rather than preloading it by hand prematch. That would be a decent engineering deal rather than a morning addition

[Woolly]

Originally Posted by CalTran

Probably the difficulty in getting a colored disc into a stable gripper from a hp slot rather than preloading it by hand prematch. That would be a decent engineering deal rather than a morning addition

The best solution I can think of off-hand would be to put a claw on a lead-screw, and having some way of relaxing the claw just enough that you can kick the Frisbees out with a pneumatic cylinder without dropping the them.

Which sounds like a modified Logomotion bot, not a modified Ultimate Ascent bot.

[Tristan Lall]

Since there's no rule that says discs count as part of the robot for certain purposes, there's no good reason to believe that this is an exception. (Do discs count as they're being ejected? Do they count when they're in the goals?) It should be 100% permissible.

And as for next year, if FIRST wanted to kill all the interesting, unexpected strategies, they might as well simplify their effort and just make the next game robotic dressage. I trust it won't come to that.

[MrJohnston]

I object to this thought. We should let tall full court shooters roam free - they are, after all, a thing of beauty!

In all seriousness, though...

I don't see using a disk to effectively increase your height as being an issue. However, you had best have a good grip in it as most FCS will send their disk with some power. Other solutiosn might be easier to pull off.

However, if you increase the perimeter, you would have to be careful about bumps in the protected feeder zone. I suspect that contact with the held Frisbee would still be considered a violation of G30 as it would violate the spirit of a protected zone.

[pfreivald]

I think that FIRST tries very hard to prevent chokehold strategies in their games, and that the rules were written with full-court shooters and blockers for those shooters in mind.

So (a) I believe this would be 100% legal, and (b) I don't think that the GDC would look at it and think, "Oh, no! We missed something!"