What happened to the "Patriarchy, misogyny, and sexism in robotics." thread?

[MamaSpoldi]

As a female engineering mentor for the last 7 years for both FRC and FLL teams, I am both happy and sad to read this thread. Sad because so many of these stories are too true in the way young women are made to feel insecure, inferior, and told to step aside. But happy because of the truly meaningful discussion that is happening here... and so much of it is coming from the students, both male and female.

Originally Posted by Gregor

I've heard this more than once judging FLL. "The boys all work on the robot, and the girls work on the project." It is quite disapointing.

-- Yes, I have heard this same type of comment while judging FLL tournaments. And I always make sure to point this out in the feedback section of the rubric so that teams are aware that this is not appropriate. I want to note though that as of this year the FLL guide notes that ALL team members are required to participate in the project. This is a step forward.

Originally Posted by robonerd

Speaking as a girl, I've never at all been interested in doing PR or spirit. That's not why I joined a robotics team. We're never pushed directly away from design or building, but we've often encountered sexist attitudes from other students - not the experienced members, who know to back off, but newbies who seem to think they know everything.

Sometimes our lead mentor makes jokes about us not being able to drive. He never questions our mechanical abilities, and we know he actually doesn't believe in whatever it is he's saying - he's an equal opportunity offender - but his jokes lead others to think that those kind of comments are acceptable.

Many of the girls on the team have grown so sensitive to this issue that any time someone says something that can be looked at as sexist, we jump down his throat. There's a whole culture change that needs to occur to fix this.

-- This is a very important point. Just because you say something as a "joke" doesn't mean it doesn't demean those who are the butt of that joke. And many will use that as justification to say what they wish... and to claim that you are just over-sensitive and can't take a joke.

Originally Posted by CLandrum3081

It's everywhere. We can either accept it or we can try to change it. And I hate to be a pessimist, so we have to change it.C

-- I agree. It is our job to change it... and we can as long as we work together.

Originally Posted by moogboy

With that in mind, I've spent this year telling my teammates and fellow students to step it up. Be classy. Stop calling girls "hot" and quit objectifying women like they only exist for your pleasure. Competitions are one of the worst places for this, because, as previously stated, we don't have girls in our school. It is too easy for guys to get caught up in their primal, animalistic urges, leading to stupid comments and generally dehumanizing behavior. It makes me uncomfortable, and I know that unfortunately sometimes the issues between girls and guys at these events go far deeper than a couple of guys quietly discussing just how callipygian someone on another team is.

-- This is an amazing insight from a young man who has essentially been trained to disrespect women and diminish their abilities. This is what a leader is. I hope his parents and his team are very proud... and that he continues to spread this uplifting attitude and destruction of cultural stereotypes. I am proud that (in his own words) "FIRST is helping him do so". We need more like him.

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

With issues like this, there's often a fine line between education and aggravation. Whether or not you are in the right on a matter, it's often better to pick your battles. You have to be careful to avoid breeding resentment towards your cause. If you call everyone out on each and every thing they do, the result is often the opposite of what you intended. It won't change the behavior, only ingrain it deeper.

You're absolutely right that the culture surrounding females in STEM fields (and in general) needs to be changed. But you can't be overly aggressive in attempting to change it. I'm not saying to let everything slide, but chose carefully how you handle situations.

-- Yes! as with all controversial issues it is important to approach the topic with a level head. Shouting and getting upset often just turns people away from even listening to your side. It is difficult when you see it and/or feel it personally but change comes from getting others to listen. So we must remember to keep pick our battles and then pursue them with tact and decorum. [On a side note, I totally loved that quote. I never saw that movie but the quote was insightful.]

Originally Posted by Thunder910

But the girls we DO have tend to often be the hardest workers and biggest contributors.

-- From my personal experience this is often true. Not to diminish the boys contributions which are also very significant. But the point here is that usually the girls who do join the team are very committed or they wouldn't put up with the crap that they sometimes get. Additionally they are generally willing to do anything that needs to be done, even if it is not seen as important by others. This often leads to them being overworked and under-appreciated. Whereas more of the boys (I am saying more, definitely not all) that join just hang out waiting for their chance to do something fun like drive.

Originally Posted by Karibou

The support for women in STEM is present and growing. Again, change won't happen overnight, but it's growing like wildfire. All it takes is one supporter, of any gender, to make a difference in someone's life. Positive impact, one person at a time.

Since I first began to show an interest in engineering, I've had countless supporters and influences that have helped me along the way. I'm not sure that I can ever repay all of them for their support, or that I can ever have that great of an influence on others, but I can certainly try. "Pay it forward," if you will.

-- When I was in college (a very long time ago, back in the 1980s) and when I graduated and got my first job as an engineer, there were very few women in engineering and sometimes that was good and other times it was bad. It really depended on the attitude of the individual person I was dealing with. Some were rude, critical, and dismissive while others were encouraging and supportive. I'm kind of sad to see that in many ways that has not changed although I think we are moving in the right direction. I'm excited to hear from a young college student that she see it growing! That is great news... but maybe it is not changing quickly enough. I work everyday to try to show young women that I did it and so can they. And this is FIRST, so we will keep on working to change the culture. That is our mandate!

[Alexa Stott]

I think it's really sad that this thread needs to exist. What I'm going to say is based both on my experiences, experiences of others that have been related to me, and just general knowledge I've gained in my various women's studies courses.

Obviously, there is a huge societal issue when it comes to women's involvement in STEM in general. Part of this is the historical attitude that women are better suited for jobs that make use of more expressive traits (what some people think of as being "feminine"). Another significant part is the lack of female role models for women in STEM. Yes, there are some very powerful women in STEM, both from the past and present. But look at the speakers that FIRST has at its events. They are largely men. Of the 17 people on the FIRST Board of Directors, there are 2 women. This trend follows for the other organizing and leading bodies of FIRST. I don't, in any way, think this is intentional, but I certainly think it is something that has been overlooked.

As previously mentioned, it's easier to attract underrepresented minorities (in this case, women) to participate if you already have women involved. This goes into group/social psychology. Being a solo minority can be isolating and isolation triggers stereotypes and leads to performance deficits. Furthermore, the minority may act more cautiously because they stick out within the group and are often viewed as representative of their entire social group. One of the biggest hurdles is always going to be getting some initial involvement from female students. This could also contribute why many women flock to the same subcommittee.

In addition to having a lack of role models, popular culture also teaches that nerdy/smart/geeky/technologically savvy women are undesirable and must change to a more "typical" woman. Playing dumb is what makes you attractive. The movies and tv shows that we are presented with reinforce this idea. One of the most popular movies of the past decade, Mean Girls, plays right into this. Cady must hide her proficiency in math in order to fit in with the popular girls and get the guy. This is just one example out of many. Movies that try to challenge this idea are few and far between. The powerful people (in general, affluent white men) do not like to see their power challenged.

Even for men who do not hold these values, there is still pressure on them to conform to these ideas. I can easily imagine a situation where a male and a female both try out for the drive team. If the female wins, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was teased (whether "jokingly" or not) about "being beat by a girl."

Others in this thread have already brought up how many female students are treated at the events. Though their own teams might treat them with dignity and respect, there are young men who relentlessly flirt with them, even when they are implicitly or explicitly told to stop. This, again, goes back to a gender roles/scripts issue that we have in our society. Men are the hunters and women are the hunted. When a woman denies a man, they are just playing hard to get and the man should just try harder. These are the types of things we learn and see in our everyday lives. It's no wonder they spill over into FIRST, as FIRST is just a subset of society. Honestly, I don't blame the women who choose not to participate in FIRST because they have better things to do than get treated inappropriately by students on other teams.

My last thought on this is that we also must be careful about engaging in benevolent sexism (seriously, read this article). When young women join robotics, they are treated differently, even if this different treatment is positive. This just reinforces the idea that women need men to help them along on the path to success. This is one of the reasons I'm on the fence about all-girls teams (except, of course, for teams that are all girls because they go to an all girls school). Is this an example of separate but equal? Part of me views this as an example of benevolent sexism. It's not reflective of the real world and it could potentially be harmful to both men and women in that women are set apart as being "different." This could potentially teach women that they can only succeed in all-female spaces. It could also teach men that women cannot keep up with them and never gives them the opportunity to experience working in a diverse group including different genders.

Edit: If you need further evidence that some of the young men in FIRST need some education on how to properly treat and talk to women, look no further than this thread.

[moogboy]

Originally Posted by Alexa Stott

In addition to having a lack of role models, popular culture also teaches that nerdy/smart/geeky/technologically savvy women are undesirable and must change to a more "typical" woman. Playing dumb is what makes you attractive. The movies and tv shows that we are presented with reinforce this idea. One of the most popular movies of the past decade, Mean Girls, plays right into this. Cady must hide her proficiency in math in order to fit in with the popular girls and get the guy. This is just one example out of many. Movies that try to challenge this idea are few and far between. The powerful people (in general, affluent white men) do not like to see their power challenged.

I always feel weird when I meet a girl who is cool enough to be nerdy/smart/geeky/technologically savvy, because I feel like it should be celebrated on so many levels, gender being one of the less important if not the least important one. To me, any person brave enough to stand up before the prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism is a hero. To add generations upon generations of sexism into that mix is an even greater accomplishment. And yet, it's difficult for me to celebrate that with that person. I can't tell if this is clear or not, but it bothers me that I have to stop and consider whether I'm being sexist or otherwise degrading in appreciating a girl's geekiness.

Originally Posted by Alexa Stott

My last thought on this is that we also must be careful about engaging in benevolent sexism (seriously, read this article). When young women join robotics, they are treated differently, even if this different treatment is positive. This just reinforces the idea that women need men to help them along on the path to success. This is one of the reasons I'm on the fence about all-girls teams (except, of course, for teams that are all girls because they go to an all girls school). Is this an example of separate but equal? Part of me views this as an example of benevolent sexism. It's not reflective of the real world and it could potentially be harmful to both men and women in that women are set apart as being "different." This could potentially teach women that they can only succeed in all-female spaces. It could also teach men that women cannot keep up with them and never gives them the opportunity to experience working in a diverse group including different genders.

I am by no means an expert in this field, but I have heard of some studies that show girls being more successful in at least science classes in single sex environments. I do agree that that sort of environment is only so useful, however. It's a stepping stone at best. Having been in single sex classes for all of high school, I am beyond ready to be in an environment where unbridled displays of testosterone fueled dude-age are frowned upon or at least checked by the presence of the opposite sex. FIRST is not an end in and of itself, but a stepping stone, like all of education, so if it's helpful for girls to work on a single sex team, I'd gladly support it.

[Alexa Stott]

Originally Posted by moogboy

I am by no means an expert in this field, but I have heard of some studies that show girls being more successful in at least science classes in single sex environments. I do agree that that sort of environment is only so useful, however. It's a stepping stone at best. Having been in single sex classes for all of high school, I am beyond ready to be in an environment where unbridled displays of testosterone fueled dude-age are frowned upon or at least checked by the presence of the opposite sex. FIRST is not an end in and of itself, but a stepping stone, like all of education, so if it's helpful for girls to work on a single sex team, I'd gladly support it.

I've taken the time to look up a few studies on sexism in education, with a particular focus on STEM.

One study found that instances of sexism were actually greater within single-sex schools. In all girls schools, female teachers had a tendency to encourage their students to be dependent and sometimes lowered their standards, while male teachers treated the students like little girls. In the all boys schools, there was certainly reinforcement of men as powerful aggressors who objectify women. I'm wondering if this extends to single-sex FIRST teams, as well. (Source)

Overall, the consensus seems to be that teachers (or in the case of FIRST, mentors/coaches) need to use gender-inclusive strategies.* This means paying equal attention to males and females, evaluating all genders based on their abilities, and be aware of the different experiences of men and women. A lot of this sort of sexism probably isn't intentional, but it is a trend that can be reversed. It's important to remind women that being good at or interested in STEM isn't "abnormal" and doesn't make them any less of a girl. The boys on the team also need to be careful not to reinforce gender roles or scripts, as well.

From this, it seems like a lot of the problems start in the classroom and spill over into FIRST. If a science teacher is reinforcing the idea that men are best suited for engaging in hands-on activities, then it's no surprise when a male student on a FIRST team reacts with surprise when a young woman wants to get involved in the more technical areas of the robot.

I'm wondering if it's possible for FIRST mentors and coaches to try to implement strategies that normalize female involvement. For example, there are plenty of women represented in the photo slideshow FIRST's FRC page, but the one picture of people actually working on a robot has two male students being led by a male adult mentor. So girls can be on the team (and some maybe even drive the robot!) but there's no indication of their involvement with the technical parts of FIRST. This trend is seen throughout the FIRST website. They probably thought they did a decent job of including girls in their photos, but only one of them shows a girl working on the robot (it's on the FTC landing page).

*Source

[MamaSpoldi]

Originally Posted by Alexa Stott

My last thought on this is that we also must be careful about engaging in benevolent sexism (seriously, read this article). When young women join robotics, they are treated differently, even if this different treatment is positive. This just reinforces the idea that women need men to help them along on the path to success. This is one of the reasons I'm on the fence about all-girls teams (except, of course, for teams that are all girls because they go to an all girls school). Is this an example of separate but equal? Part of me views this as an example of benevolent sexism. It's not reflective of the real world and it could potentially be harmful to both men and women in that women are set apart as being "different." This could potentially teach women that they can only succeed in all-female spaces. It could also teach men that women cannot keep up with them and never gives them the opportunity to experience working in a diverse group including different genders.

-- Thanks for sharing that article, it is very interesting. I think that mutual respect is the only way that this will eventually work better. And working together toward a common goal (like building a robot) can go a long way toward building that kind of respect. Often it is when we see what each of us brings to the table that we can see the value of that ability. I don't think that men need to be trained to be more sensitive and I don't think that women should need to change to fit into the existing male mold either. And let's not forget that there are men who are more expressive and women who are more ambitious... and they too are valuable assets. We all need to learn to accept and value our differences and what that diversity brings to the task at hand... and not to pre-judge anyone's aptitudes and skills based on their gender.