The Stereotyping of Successful Teams

[JesseK]

(This isn't a have-not soapbox ... I have a wonderment...)

On our team, time has always been against us. The 6 week build season is hard, and it's tough to get time out of the work days during build season to get to the school without project managers going ape s---. "Only putting in 40 hours a week? Ha. There goes your technical career." It has led to a lot of mentor burn-out, particularly when the 6 week build season is stretched out to 16 weeks in the pursuit of making software and 30lbs of robot better. The few weeks after the end of build few of us even want to think about a robot, let alone have to tweak it. Even one of the prominent FiM guys REALLY wants to do away with the 6-week cycle altogether, exposing more teams with low mentor resources to more burn-out. I'd be curious to see how the more elite teams deal with this via their team structure, mentor recruiting, etc.

One last point: teams don't even need to perform very well on the field to be talked about negatively. Simply powder-coating the robot because a sponsor has requested it every year is enough for many individuals to treat a team with this type of disrespect.

[rachelholladay]

Originally Posted by Ivan Malik

No... You are looking at it from a very different perspective than I am, hence why I said I'm looking at it from an FRC wide type of view and not an individual team view. Each team should always try and "sustain their excellence," but the larger system of FRC should not be designed so that the same teams can stay excellent. There should be some sort of factor that destabilizes things. Right now it very much so is designed so that teams that are ahead can stay ahead, if they don't have unforeseen factors like losing sponsors or build space, etc.

There is particularly excellent short story that I would greatly recommend called 'Harrison Bergeron' by Kurt Vonnegut. (For just the summary, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron)

[OZ_341]

Originally Posted by Ivan Malik

If every team is sustaining excellence then what is excellent? .......Good bye green dots, hello red ones...

You won't see any red dots from me. I was hoping for this discussion.
What I am about to say comes from someone that was tired of losing. I know the sting of missing the playoffs and packing up early. The difference is that we did not just accept it or blame someone else.
Sustained Excellence is YOU trying your hardest in every possible way. Period.
Sustained Excellence does not guarantee a desired result. Olympic hockey coach Herb Brooks called this "sacrificing for the unknown." You have to work your *** off under the strong possibility that you may never see victory. There is no short cut. In the end what you achieve from Sustained Excellence is a deeper satisfaction for doing your absolute best, not what you tell yourself is your best. If you do this you will put yourself on that trajectory towards the "carrot". Every year our team has the goal of making it to Einstein. We have made it once in 14 years. In our one appearance (10 years ago), we flipped on our back and died. Yet we set this as the only acceptable goal every year. Fools? Maybe. But we will continue to "sacrifice for the unknown" and strive for excellence.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Ivan Malik

The concept of "sustained excellence" partnered with the concept of "you can do it too, if you set your mind to it" flat out doesn't work. If every team is sustaining excellence then what is excellent? You can't have a system where every team is awesome because then awesome would be average. This is a sign of a broken or soon to be broken system.

What statements like these look like to people not on top is a carrot on a stick. IMHO this is why you see the team bashing. This is why you see the stereotyping. When teams are told or assume that the play fields are level, and they can see the carrot and the stick. This image sinks in even further when you see the same teams beating the crap out of you year after year and they are the ones selling you the carrot. It doesn't matter how these teams beat you, with what resources they did it with, etc. Rather it's the repeated spanking that is the issue. For a system to look equal there needs to be turnover in what teams get success. This doesn't mean that the same teams always win everything, but rather the same teams are always within grasp of wining. You don't see much turnover in the FRC. Rather you see the same regional powerhouses again and again beating their opponents. The FRC needs more streaky teams to be healthy, not more powerhouses. Powerhouses are great for exposure, they draw a lot of attention. Powerhouses are not great at changing culture. Why? Because one team is a source of inspiration for other teams, but 1000 teams is inspiration for an entire country. Yes I understand that there isn't just one team to rule them all, but regionally there are usually a handful that do. Considering how few teams actually get to see outside their region, the same effect is felt by them.

I'm going to take a whack at this post to prove you wrong.

Case in point - MAR and NJ/PA in general.

25, 56, 103, 365 used to be giants. On some level, they still are, but not to the extent that they used to be.

Latest couple seasons- teams are rising to the challenge of ranking with and above these teams. Examples: 1676, 1640, 341 (yes these guys weren't always top dog on the field like they are now), 2590, 2607, 2016, 11, 1403, 1218.

If you think teams aren't improving and rising above their competition, then you aren't analyzing the full playing field.

Saying that teams aren't inspired by the powerhouses to knock them out is just false.

Other areas of interest- California, New England teams (mostly CT and Boston area), Texas, Hawaii even. CANADALAND

Take a look at 973, 1323, 696, 1538, etc... These are all products of teams looking at perennial powerhouses and wanting to rise above them. Many of these teams have done so. What's cool is that it pushes teams like 254 even more.

Soon, the current or new generation of elite teams and powerhouses will give rise to an even newer generation of elite teams.

The culture of MAR is changing, the culture of FiM is definitely changing. Everyone outside of FiM can see the improvement in team quality. Soon, some of those teams will learn to rise about current and former powerhouses.

I'm fine with people posting their opinions, but please do your research when you post things like this.

[OZ_341]

Originally Posted by Ivan Malik

........ the same teams are always within grasp of wining. You don't see much turnover in the FRC. Rather you see the same regional powerhouses again and again beating their opponents....

FIRST people tend to understandably think in terms of numbers. We extrapolate the results of matches before they happen. I am a former engineer so I get that idea. But a blind belief in only the numbers and the machines will lead to a defeatist attitude. You can rise above the numbers and the machines. What is often overlooked and underestimated is the human factor in a match. Having the foolish belief that you can win a match in which you are completely outgunned will drive you to develop a winning strategy.

Long before we were considered a powerhouse team we would win matches and playoff rounds that we had no business winning, because we believed in ourselves enough to make the effort to win the match.
I also wish I had a dollar for every time we went into a match with the wrong attitude and lost a match that we should have won because we thought the data would hand us a victory.
FIRST is a sport and every sport starts "inside your head". I remind my students and coaches of this message at every opportunity.

[Foster]

Daisy and Moe are regional powerhouses in the Philly region. In a very FIRST like way, they have been willing to share that info. (Team in a Box, amazing web sites, off season events, etc.) Teams have picked up on those things and some are using it. Clem and Siri from 1640 pointed out they made a conscious effort to reach out to Daisy and Moe and learn from them. Seems to have worked, three regional wins and a recent trip to Einstein for Sab-bot-age.

Both teams have similar features. Inspired Mentors. Inspired Roboteers. Work hard. Work hard all year, not just the 13 weeks of the season. Work the entire program, not just building a robot. They are all here to make a difference. Strong commitment to making a difference.

And when I talk to other HOF mentors you can see that almost incandescent glow about their commitment. When you talk to their roboteers you can see that glow also. So while the haters continue to hate, the smart people are asking "How can I get that glow too".

[Koko Ed]

Last year we attended MARC for the very first time and got pummeled all day long and came in second to last and it was perfect. Every match we were paired with a great team going against a great team. We learned so much for them and this year I encouraged the drives team to explore the pits and take a look at what the teams are using for their drives systems (I think our choice of going with Mechanums cost us getting picked) to see if they can have input next season on using those designs for our robot.
It's easy to get defensive around elite teams. Many of them seem aloof and stuck up but to be honest the more your around them the more you realize they're just good people. They're just tend to be better organized.

[ErikEdhlund]

On my time with WildStang, both as student and as a mentor, I have only been inspired and have always looked to 341 as a great team. I have a very deep respect for your team. Your team is one of my favorite teams to spectate and follow through out competition season.

[MisterJ]

I've been trying to avoid this thread, but I don't think I can any more. Kudos to the posters above for their support of team 341, who is a well-tuned group of hard-working students and mentors. With such a big team - yes, it requires a heck of a lot of clapping when they head to the field after winning an award, but it's extremely well-deserved clapping - Daisy students and mentors have the ability to both create very high-functioning robots and provide help to other teams, which they do regularly.

I feel my team has an interesting perspective on team 341. We lost to them in both of our district finals 2-matches-to-1. It's so easy to become annoyed frustrated after that, but I've heard my students instead asking, "How can our team become like that? What can we do to bring ourselves up on that level?"

It's fun to look at a match schedule and see that you're playing with or against such a potent team. If you're allied with them, you know there's a lot to be learned. If you're against them, you know that you're going to be forced to raise your game and develop an even better strategy.

Even though we're 2-8 versus team 341 in our first two years as a team, we're watching you closely... We're learning a lot... And we're looking up to you as role models. One of these years, we're going to beat you guys in elims and I hope you can smile when we do, knowing how much of our success has come from imitating MAR's best team.

[LemmingBot]

(I forgot I had this until just now)


I'm sorry but if you are seriously going to bash a team for any reason you have no place in the FIRST community at all.

[MissDaisyGirl]

I don't mean to steer this back to the negative amid all of these positive posts but I did want to tack on something to Mr. Ostrow's initial post.

When you do end up stereotyping a team in the way that Mr. Ostrow points out, you're not only putting another team down but you are putting that team's students down. What pains me the most as a fellow mentor of Miss Daisy is having to explain to one of my students why someone may have said something to them that was off color in the midst of an atmosphere of "gracious professionalism". If you're thinking about saying something out loud like this, don't say it at all, least of all within earshot of one of my students. No team member needs to hear that when they may have only been on the team a mere handful of months.

And finally, I can corroborate all that Mr. Ostrow has said. Even though I'm a fellow mentor, I still call him "Mr. O" because I am one of those 341 graduates he speaks of!

[Hallry]

I am disgusted that anyone would ever stereotype or criticize Miss Daisy. For those of who that have, or let me tell you a story:

Last year, a small group of our students wanted to try to go to IRI for the first time in our team's history. We were lucky enough to be invited, but now we had to get out there. I, at the time Co-C.E.O. and a junior-turning-senior on the team, was basically in charge of organizing the whole trip for us. Without 341's help, our trip to IRI would never have been possible. They not only offered us spare spots on their bus out there, but they also offered us room on their trailer if needed. Additionally, they ensured that a car of one of our parents would be safely locked up at their school while we were away. Mr. Ostrow and Team 341 made sure they could do everything possible to help us. We all felt completely comfortable in their hands. Their hospitality was so amazing and inspiring. I and the rest of our team that went to IRI can not show enough appreciation and gratitude towards your team. You made us feel right at home, and Team 1676 is extremely honored to call you our friends. There's nobody we'd rather spend a 12-hour bus ride with than you =).

If there is any team that truly embodies the gracious professionalism of FIRST, it's Daisy.

[JudyVandy]

Just want to add, Al, that you and your team members are widely respected as consistent examples of 'gracious professionals', both on and off the field. People with whom I have volunteered and worked, think very highly of you all!

[D.Allred]

Originally Posted by OZ_341

[b]... In 2012, we built our best machine ever. Some visitors to our pit were visibly disappointed to find that our machine was a pile of extruded aluminum and urethane belting, just cleverly arranged and programmed. ...

Actually, I found that extremely inspiring. I used your 2012 "Behind the Design Process" to guide our students' design strategy this year. Thanks so much for sharing.

Our team enjoyed the opportunity to play with Miss Daisy and Team Mean Machine on the Newton field. Our 218 to 191 win was definitely one of this seasons highlights.

Keep up the great work!

David Allred
ROBOTZ Garage

[MechEng83]

Oh, to be the successful team that suffers from being stereotyped!

Unfortunately, this is the price for being an elite team (on or off the field). FIRST is at the vanguard of a culture change, but many people are not there yet. Jealousy and bitterness rear their ugly head again and again.

Don't be discouraged by the stereotype. Consider it a compliment in disguise. I appreciate seeing the story and explanation of team histories. As a coach, it allows me to show my students what can be accomplished with whatever resources you have, given the determination and resolve of dedicated students and mentors.