Saving Seats Epidemic

[CENTURION]

Originally Posted by Woolly

Right, now if only we could require every team to send 1 rep to scout, such that it becomes plainly obvious to teams where to get good scouting info, rather than showing up to alliance selections and just picking by rank/reputation/#of LEDs.

The end goal for the CrowdScout system is just that: Get every team at a regional involved. Now making it a requirement might be a bit harder

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

First off, I'd like to point out that any suggestions of "first-come-first-served buuuut {reserved scout/media area, 6 prime seats per team, current match cheering section, etc.}" is pretty much an argument for the status quo. Teams reserving a handful of seats for scout aren't the problem. Teams reserving 40+ seats with 3 people are the problem. No matter your exception, there will still be teams with 40+ people they want sitting together looking for seats in the first-come sections. Making exceptions for small amounts of people is just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.

Crazy idea:
Most complaints seem to center around people having to sit "alone". Sitting "alone" in this case seems to mean sitting somewhere not surrounded by people you've been stuck working on a robot with 12 hours a day for the last 6 weeks. Instead you're surrounded by people who've been stuck working on a robot for 12 hours a day for the last 6 weeks.

Surely all of us FIRSTers have enough in common that we're never actually alone in the stands no matter who's sitting next to us. Maybe if more of us made a point of spreading out a bit more and getting a bit more comfortable with all the other similarly crazy people in the stands, there'd be less worry about having to reserve completely contiguous, uninterrupted blocks of 40+ seats.

In furtherance of this, I think I'll spend more time at my next regional actively sitting just a bit away from my team. Feel free to call me crazy now.

Okay, you're crazy, but you're my kind of crazy

I love hanging out with other teams, you can get into some very fun discussions.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by CENTURION

The end goal for the CrowdScout system is just that: Get every team at a regional involved. Now making it a requirement might be a bit harder

The thing with this system is that not every team wants to scouts, cares to scout, or thinks they need to scout. Scouting is a lot of work. While I do think that cooperative scouting can be great (as evidenced by Team 20's collab scouting at our regionals and at champs), I don't know if every team should be involved.

If every team has the same scouting data, everyone knows who the best robots to pick are, and it gets rid of the competitive edge you get by scouting.

And not every team is looking for that competitive edge.

I think scouting collaboratively is a good thing, but sharing the information with everyone removes the "profit" incentive from the equation that is the edge meant to allow your team to perform better than others in elimination rounds.

These are just my thoughts- not necessarily all of Team 20's, just mine.
Take them for what they are.

[Woolly]

Also, if you're involved with the control system (Programming, Electronics) I find that it's actually great if you sit away from your scouts and sit in those wide-out seats that no one uses behind your team's driver station.
You'll be able to see exactly what your drivers are trying to do with your control system in a real match, instead of in a relaxed practice match, and probably be able to know if anything needs to be changed before you even hear their report when they get back to the pits.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by dcarr

As open minded as this is, it's not a way to build and share team spirit, to share the highs and lows with the people you've worked with, love, and care about. To me, a FIRST event wouldn't be the same without this.

Whatever changes are made to seating in the future, having teams be able to sit together, at least while their robot is on the field, is of utmost importance.

I'm not really advocating for everyone spreading out over the entire stadium. Just a relaxation of the requirement that the entire team has to all sit in one spot with no gaps whatsoever. Because everyone here knows that the only way that could happen is if everyone is assigned seats that have been mapped out in advance by the RD. If teams are more willing to co-mingle then thursday-friday-saturday morning becomes a lot easier because each team's footprint in the stands ebbs and flows as the matches come and go.

Originally Posted by Woolly

Also, if you're involved with the control system (Programming, Electronics) I find that it's actually great if you sit away from your scouts and sit in those wide-out seats that no one uses behind your team's driver station.
You'll be able to see exactly what your drivers are trying to do with your control system in a real match, instead of in a relaxed practice match, and probably be able to know if anything needs to be changed before you even hear their report when they get back to the pits.

We should lobby for a programmer observation zone near the field so we can hover over the drivers and they can hear the hair tearing when they forget that they have speed trim knobs that are probably why they're consistently shooting low all match.

[Tom Line]

I have to admit, I'm probably a seat-saver's worst nightmare.

I run back and forth from the pits to the stands to watch our matches and then help in the pits. As a result, I never go all the way up to where our kids and mentors sit. At champs, I routinely walked up to a row of seats along the rim (the single row up against the railing), MOVED people's stuff from the seats, and sat in them. I got a couple 'how dare you' looks, but no one got up the courage to say something.

Sorry, but if there isn't a body it in, then it's there to be used for someone else. If someone came back to sit, I'd move immediately. So far - it's never happened. Not once.

I suspect the problem is that people are usually too passive to say something. Come in. Sit where you can. If you see a team hoarding 4 rows when they only appear to need two, then simply go and talk to them. If they claim they are saving, quote the rule, and ask gently if they will please move their things so other people can have room to sit.

At that point, there is nothing more that you can do. That is the gracious and professional path, even if it is the hard one where you may find some push back.

[Jon Stratis]

Disclaimer: The first and only time I actually sat in the stands this year was during Einstein matches (and my seats were way off to one side... I watched the matches more on the big screens than I did the actual field)

Here's a crazy thought...

Teams save a ton of seats because, at certain times (like opening, closing, and awards ceremonies) all of the team is in the stands. At all other times, those teams need way fewer seats.

So... why don't those larger teams clear out a section of "their" seats after opening ceremonies (you know, the ones for the people who go down to drive, work on the robot, give VIP tours, talk with other teams, etc), and invite smaller teams who may not have gotten great seats to join them? Show a little GP with those seats that stay empty though most of the matches! When it comes time for the awards ceremony, why can't everyone work together and shuffle over to let teams expand to include all of their members? Why does GP exist in the pits and on the field, but not in the stands? Lets get everyone to stand up before ceremonies and spread out a little... call it FIRST's version of the 7th inning stretch.

Something tells me people don't get all this upset because they have a bad angle to see the video of some politician saying how great our program is... They get upset because they want a better angle to view the matches.

[robochick1319]

Originally Posted by ZehP

Hey guys. I'm from 1732. Those are our seat savers. Please let me explain.

I know they're bad. I know you don't like them. WE don't like them.

We simply didn't see any alternatives. As a team sending 84 (!) people down to St. Louis this year, we were unsure as to what our course of action should be. At the Wisconsin and Boilermaker Regionals we kept a general area of seating "reserved" by leaving piles of stuff there, rendering many seats useless, leading to people's things being stepped on, and, inevitable, losing things. We did, in the process, create a space for the scouts, spirit team, parents, mentors, and guests that came along. Unfortunately, we always had people sitting alone. We've struggled with seating for the past few years that I've been on the team, always ending up spread out. As a last resort, and after seeing many other teams to so, we opted for these felt, rubber band, and sticker combinations.

I never saw anyone who wasn't on our team shooed out of one of the marked seats. I remember, possibly the day that photo was taken, giving up entire rows because of the outrage over our seat savers. On Saturday we didn't bring them. We learned our lesson and sent half of the team to the venue really early.

I apologize.

I appreciate you coming forward and apologizing for the seat savers but I don't think you are to be blamed or hated for it. When the whole world is saving seats, what are you expected to do to ensure that your team and team visitors have a place to sit? It was gracious of you to move as you did.

This debate can go on forever but the only real way to solve it is for everyone to agree to not save seats. Unfortunately, that will not happen. Teams still leave signs in the stands when they go to lunch and (regrettably) leave them in the stands when they leave for the day.

There are tons of rules stated by FIRST that are not actually enforced. Best example is this excerpt from section 4.13 of the manual:

We ask that you bring attention to your team in ways that are in good taste and in the spirit of the competition. Please refrain from the following:

Using noisemakers;
Using objects that can damage bleachers or floors;
Wearing inappropriate clothing; and/or
Taping or affixing items or papers to walls, bleachers, floors or other site areas.

How often are these rules broken with innocent intentions? Often.

I think the best solution for FIRST is to limit the competition sizes. Please don't get me wrong, I don't think the number of teams in FIRST should be capped. Instead, we need more regional events and/or a district set up. I'm sorry, but 65 teams in Palmetto and 60 in Peachtree was AWFUL. Not only is saving seats a problem but so is pit crowding and robot transportation.

Alternatively, if you want to have 60 teams in Peachtree, find a better venue to hold them. If the number of teams and team members increase, logic says that the regional venue should change as well.

[Orion.DeYoe]

So I think the big issue here is that teams want all of there members to sit together in one area for the entirety of the competition.
Several people suggested (and they repeated this over and over and over again at championships) that you move in for your match and then leave afterwards.
But here's the issue: I don't know how many people you bring to your competitions but we bring our whole team. And I haven't seen any team bring only a pit crew and drive team (who are the people that can leave after their match). We also don't want our entire team wandering around the event between matches.
However we are a small team (~20 people plus a few family and friends that tag along at the events) so when you suggest that we separate 6 people or so to a separate section for scouting that's almost/more than half of the people that we have sitting in the stands at one time. Now I am down in the pit or on the field for the competition and I'm constantly back and forth from the pits to the stands (getting scouting information, swapping out people in the pits, getting my lunch, etc.) and if there isn't a designated area where I can find my team at all times then that just adds stress to an already stressful situation.
So as I said before: the issue here is that teams want all their members to sit together for the entirety of the competition.
I'm certainly not going to settle for anything less than that.

Okay so now that I've bored you all with my irritation that FIRST doesn't allow the saving of seats I will present my solution.
I think that FIRST should reserve parts of the stands for certain teams. FIRST has access to how many people are on your team (also, registering how many people will be with you at the competition could be a part of registering up for an event) so they could easily decide how many seats your team will need. They can also reserve several decently sized sections for spectators who are not affiliated with a team. The sad truth is that there are very few people who watch events who are not affiliated with a team in some way so this system wouldn't inconvenience anyone not with a team.
Also if they want to reserve a section (with a very good view of the field) for scouters then they can do that as well.
So that's my opinion.

[GeorgeM]

Oh come on guys, does this really need to be addressed?

Why not have your FULL team arrive earlier than the seat takers and sit in the seats that you want? Or why not hold your ground when someone tells you that this seat is reserved? Yes, you may get into an argument - but it is clearly stated in the rules that seats are not allowed to be saved. They can choose to sit in between the full team if they'd like, but generally people don't like doing that. I've been on both sides of the argument enough times to realize that the "reserver" eventually loses.

The problem with trying to change the culture of saving seats is that more teams with more students will show up earlier and try to race into the building, creating an even bigger "Black Friday Sale" scenario, which is apparently the exact opposite of what you want.

Another thing that adds to the problem is that teams can choose to sit in the "reserved" seats, but - like the "reservers" - want to sit together as a team. What this means is that if people are mad that teams are saving seats in sections, it's because it doesn't let their team sit in a section. That's some backwards logic.

Additionally it's the kids that "lose" the race that make such a big fuss about the teams that win it. In most cases, teams only send a skeleton crew to get seats - which means that the ones who lose have no right in being mad that other teams got their first. If their teams gets there before the "reservers" team gets there - then by all means, take the reserved seats! What's stopped people from doing that? Oh, right, their team doesn't get there before the "reservers" team...

What's another 30 minutes (at a regional) in the scheme of things? Kids spend longer than that on their hair...or dressing up in bad costumes...What's the problem with taking a quick nap in the stands before ceremonies start? What do the teams that get the best seats do? Send an early crew to stand at the front of the line, then send the rest of the team earlier to join them. 1114, 2056, 254, 148, and more ALL DO THIS - You want to be the best? Do as they do.

This problem stems from laziness and lack of courage to stand up to someone who is breaking the rules. The arguments are usually very passive aggressive, and even when there is a disagreement both sides see it differently. (I've been the victim of an alleged debacle with an older woman for being in "my section". The lady further went on to contact my team and tell them how unimpressed she was of my behavior. Although not true it taught me a few things - namely that there are two sides to every story.)

Moral of the Story: If you're unhappy about something, change it. Send the full team earlier...

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by GeorgeM

Oh come on guys, does this really need to be addressed?

Why not have your FULL team arrive earlier than the seat takers and sit in the seats that you want? Or why not hold your ground when someone tells you that this seat is reserved?
Moral of the Story: If you're unhappy about something, change it. Send the full team earlier...

Sorry, but that's not the solution. We have a problem of "tragedy of the commons" or "the rule of capture". Both are recognized by economists as a systemic failure that creates significant problems that must be addressed. Requiring early arrival, posting guards, etc. are all resource drains during a competition that is already grueling, especially for smaller teams or teams without the resources to bring their full team. Why do we want to drive off smaller, less wealthy teams? The point of FIRST is to spread the message about the importance of STEM education and the role of robotics competition in enhancing that.

A better solution is to 1) consider seat allocation formulas--as suggested elsewhere, FIRST knows how many are registered 2) distinguish seating between those that are necessary for team functioning, i.e., scouting and those that are not i.e., spirit. The latter group should be placed in the upper tiers to open up seating for 1) scouts and 2) the public on the last day. In addition, FIRST might consider moving the non-qualified teams into the upper seats during the elimination rounds.

This year, we were squeezed between two teams in the spirit competition for a day, and it made our scouting more difficult. The next day was better, but two other large teams still spilled into our small area. Let's try to make this more pleasant and not a battle for seating space every day.

One other note--some of us are still preparing to support our team after the competition day is over. I went to bed well after midnight both nights working on scouting and strategy. Requiring me and others working with me to get there by 7 am just to save a seat fails to recognize the importance of contributions being made by all team members.

[Aidan S.]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

Sorry, but that's not the solution. We have a problem of "tragedy of the commons" or "the rule of capture". Both are recognized by economists as a systemic failure that creates significant problems that must be addressed. Requiring early arrival, posting guards, etc. are all resource drains during a competition that is already grueling, especially for smaller teams or teams without the resources to bring their full team. Why do we want to drive off smaller, less wealthy teams? The point of FIRST is to spread the message about the importance of STEM education and the role of robotics competition in enhancing that.

A better solution is to 1) consider seat allocation formulas--as suggested elsewhere, FIRST knows how many are registered 2) distinguish seating between those that are necessary for team functioning, i.e., scouting and those that are not i.e., spirit. The latter group should be placed in the upper tiers to open up seating for 1) scouts and 2) the public on the last day. In addition, FIRST might consider moving the non-qualified teams into the upper seats during the elimination rounds.

This year, we were squeezed between two teams in the spirit competition for a day, and it made our scouting more difficult. The next day was better, but two other large teams still spilled into our small area. Let's try to make this more pleasant and not a battle for seating space every day.

One other note--some of us are still preparing to support our team after the competition day is over. I went to bed well after midnight both nights working on scouting and strategy. Requiring me and others working with me to get there by 7 am just to save a seat fails to recognize the importance of contributions being made by all team members.

I don't think it would be feasible to employ a lottery system to allocate seats, simply on the fact that a team's needs differ so greatly at a competition. These points have been brought up previously in the thread, but I wish to re-iterate them. Some teams bring 10 people to an event, some bring more than 100. How can we equally divide up seats when teams do not have equal needs?

In general, teams don't want to be split up at an event, hence the rush to grab seats at the beginning of the day. But I think most teams are successful in adhering to the rules that FIRST outlines for seating allocation. When we send a crew of students early to sit in the section we would like, we never stop other individuals form sitting there alongside us, rather we welcome them to join us. The main issue here is people not understanding the policy that FIRST has outlined.

The race for seats in the morning has become an aspect of the competition. On the final day of champs, I arose at 5am, after going to sleep the night before past midnight, to take a group of students to get in line at the front doors. We were one of the first teams in line at the doors when they opened. Our early crew of students is actually excited to get to the event before anyone else, and takes great pride when we are the first team there. Now, when the doors open, we calmly go to sit in the section we want, but by that point, the rest of the team has also arrived, albeit further down the line, and within a few short minutes, our entire group is sitting together, ready to take on another day of competition. The competition starts when the doors to the venue open, not when opening ceremonies start or the first match is played. In St. Louis, the doors opened at 7am, so that's when the entire team arrived.

Allocating an area for scouting is unfeasible simply because of the diversity of how teams scout. Some teams take 20+ students to scout an event, some take 2, some take none. Some scout by watching matches, some talk to teams in the pit, some do both. Since the amount and type of scouting a team does is so dependent on the team itself, I doubt that there is an accurate way to allocate the correct amount of seats at an event to accommodate everyone. At some events, 100 seats will be far too much, and at others, 100 seats won't accommodate more than 5 teams.

You bring up the topic of spirit as a non-necessity of team function. I am going to have to disagree with you on this point. I can only speak for experience from my own team, but for us, there is no distinction between spirit and scouting (or any other division for that matter). On the contrary, our scouts are probably the loudest supporters of our team when they are on the field. Our students take great pride in cheering on our drivers when they are in the midst of a match, and telling individuals sitting in a dedicated "scouting section" that they can't cheer on their team because it is distracting to the other scouts will only result in two outcomes: either the scouts will continue to cheer as they did before, ignoring the new rule, or they will simply choose not to sit in the "scouting section" and join the rest of their team.

Now, I do agree that there needs to be a solution for seating for the general public. I think that this can be achieved by roping off a section of seats for people who are unaffiliated with teams and just want to take in the action. It's generally pretty easy to tell who is on a team and who is a spectator, and this would be easy to enforce.

In short, I believe that we shouldn't allocate everyone the same seating space at events, because, since our needs as teams are so diverse, there is no way to make everyone happy with this type of system. The system we have now works, as long as everyone clearly understands what the rules are.

[jvriezen]

Perhaps this should the only approved method of saving seats:
http://www.larknews.com/archives/301

[Jimmy Nichols]

Originally Posted by iyermihir

An announcement each morning during a regional could help prevent people from saving seats. I think that many people are not aware of the rule. Even people who are doing it with full knowledge of the rule may stop and think about it before saving seats.

-Mihir Iyer

At QCR we made this announcement several times.

[BrendanB]

I know at the Championship, PTR, and GSR they made several announcements about the seats rule but they made the announcements in the pits. Not really the best place to announce that.

[IndySam]

As visitors to QC I must say that we had no problem finding seats. First we came in an 48 invited us to have a seat in their section and during the finals we sat with 1741.

This is in direct contrast to last year at Midwest where we were denied seats by a couple of well known teams until finding a home with the great folks from 71.