Saving Seats Epidemic

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Kimmeh

First off, I found this whole thing beautiful. I love A Modest Proposal.

But I do question if anyone is "delicious, nourishing, or wholesome" after the fare one eats for the six weeks of build season...

They're full of pizza and Dew. That's hardly nourishing.

[Carolyn_Grace]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

They're full of pizza and Dew. That's hardly nourishing.

There's tomato sauce on the pizza.
Anyway, that extra weight that everyone puts on during build season will mean there's extra meat on the bones. Just need to balance it out with a few carrot sticks.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by Carolyn_Grace

Ahem....here is my modest proposal:

Save the neck for me, Clark.

(oops. We're not supposed to be saving things. Nevermind.)

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by Marc S.

If FIRST is going to intervene then here's a solution that I hope for.

10 seats be saved for each teams scouts. As a scout I know that 6 people is not enough. Ideally a team ha6 people scouting data, a data entering person, a team sheet organizer, and 2 strategic scouts. You may even be able to argue 11 or 12 seats cause having a mentor is useful too. Having two rows of 5 or 6 would be nice.

Also, wouldn't this be up to individual regional/distict coordinators?

I agree with this proposal.

[efoote868]

Originally Posted by Marc S.

If FIRST is going to intervene then here's a solution that I hope for.

10 seats be saved for each teams scouts. As a scout I know that 6 people is not enough. Ideally a team ha6 people scouting data, a data entering person, a team sheet organizer, and 2 strategic scouts. You may even be able to argue 11 or 12 seats cause having a mentor is useful too. Having two rows of 5 or 6 would be nice.

Also, wouldn't this be up to individual regional/distict coordinators?

2 of the 10 you listed don't need a nice view of the field. Also I'm not quite sure what you mean by "strategic scouts," but if you have all 6 robots covered then surely you'll get all interactions on the field.

[Mike Schreiber]

I find this entire topic almost laughable.

I understand we do not have the best system for seating at events. I hate to be a the pessimist, but do you really think FIRST is sitting around thinking what type of raffle system would work best for seats? Somehow I get the feeling they have bigger concerns. Not only that, but if FIRST actually needed to design an elaborate system to assign seats I would feel silly as if I was back in elementary school. Quite frankly, I'm not convinced the idea is possible nor desirable to be organized on a FIRST wide level. The variation in venues etc makes this questionably feasible.

On a humorous note how about a "15 Minute Parking Section" meant for teams to just walk up watch their match and leave.

Social experiment: Section off a small, but easily accessible area in front of the field, with a sign that looks official saying "These seats are available to teams while their robot is playing on the field, please remain no longer than is appropriate." See what happens.

In all seriousness you should probably ask somebody in some sort of position of power before you try something like that, but I would like to see how trustworthy our fellow FIRSTers are.

[Pendulum^-1]

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

Social experiment: Section off a small, but easily accessible area in front of the field, with a sign that looks official saying "These seats are available to teams while their robot is playing on the field, please remain no longer than is appropriate." See what happens.

In all seriousness you should probably ask somebody in some sort of position of power before you try something like that, but I would like to see how trustworthy our fellow FIRSTers are.

Looks like we are coming full circle. My earlier post (well hidden as one post among the 130 other posts) is nearly identical to this idea. Simple, straightforward in execution. Maybe several of us should petition our local regionals and/or our leading teams at our regionals to organize such an area, and see how people like it.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=52

The only thing I would add to the post: Cheering section people should stay seated during their match, so others can see the field.

Simple, simple, simple. Whatever we propose has to be nearly zero effort from the event staff.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

I find this entire topic almost laughable.

I understand we do not have the best system for seating at events. I hate to be a the pessimist, but do you really think FIRST is sitting around thinking what type of raffle system would work best for seats? Somehow I get the feeling they have bigger concerns. Not only that, but if FIRST actually needed to design an elaborate system to assign seats I would feel silly as if I was back in elementary school. Quite frankly, I'm not convinced the idea is possible nor desirable to be organized on a FIRST wide level. The variation in venues etc makes this questionably feasible.

I suspect at the regional level that this can be left to the local committees. However, I think it could be a bigger issue if outside spectators show up in greater numbers. Isn't Kammen's aim to make this as visible as other sports?

The real issue is in St. Louis where the most motivated teams come together. And again, this is an important issue if Kammen truly wants to spread the popularity of this program. On the other hand, in my experience these types of issues are never addressed ahead of time until a true crisis arises, at least in part because many people dismiss its importance early on. So we'll see how this plays out--it doesn't mean that I and others need to sit back complacently simply because a solution isn't likely in the near term.

[jamierose]

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

I find this entire topic almost laughable.

I understand we do not have the best system for seating at events. I hate to be a the pessimist, but do you really think FIRST is sitting around thinking what type of raffle system would work best for seats? Somehow I get the feeling they have bigger concerns. Not only that, but if FIRST actually needed to design an elaborate system to assign seats I would feel silly as if I was back in elementary school. Quite frankly, I'm not convinced the idea is possible nor desirable to be organized on a FIRST wide level. The variation in venues etc makes this questionably feasible.

On a humorous note how about a "15 Minute Parking Section" meant for teams to just walk up watch their match and leave.

Social experiment: Section off a small, but easily accessible area in front of the field, with a sign that looks official saying "These seats are available to teams while their robot is playing on the field, please remain no longer than is appropriate." See what happens.

In all seriousness you should probably ask somebody in some sort of position of power before you try something like that, but I would like to see how trustworthy our fellow FIRSTers are.

There was a section like that at BAE Granite State Regional and it actually worked pretty much perfectly. I don't know how well it would work at champs, though.

[SarahBeth]

Originally Posted by jamierose

There was a section like that at BAE Granite State Regional and it actually worked pretty much perfectly. I don't know how well it would work at champs, though.

There was also a section like this in Lewiston, it was standing room on the floor by the field and teams who's teams were on the field could go down and cheer. It worked really well.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

I understand we do not have the best system for seating at events. I hate to be a the pessimist, but do you really think FIRST is sitting around thinking what type of raffle system would work best for seats? Somehow I get the feeling they have bigger concerns. Not only that, but if FIRST actually needed to design an elaborate system to assign seats I would feel silly as if I was back in elementary school. Quite frankly, I'm not convinced the idea is possible nor desirable to be organized on a FIRST wide level. The variation in venues etc makes this questionably feasible.

Cory made a great post a couple pages back. This topic may seem ridiculous, but people have been seriously hurt in the mad rush for seats at Championship (and I'm sure other events as well). IMO, something needs to be done about the queue for seating. I linked to Cory's post because he explains the situation perfectly. It basically comes down to total chaos and teams having to take their OWN measures to protect themselves from being trampled.

If you haven't experienced being right at the doors when they open in St. Louis, it may seem trivial, but in my experiences is needlessly chaotic and dangerous.

-Brando

Originally Posted by Cory

I fail to see the problem here. You want good seats, get there early. There should be staff in the venue during the mad rush that kick teams out of seats they are trying to occupy with flags, banners, pom poms, signs, whatever. That solves that problem. We had our entire team up extremely early (as did 3-4 others) in order to be one of the first teams in. All our mentors were up past midnight every night too. If you want good seats, that's what you've got to do.

The real problem is that it's a complete madhouse getting in and totally unsafe. Everyone has heard stories of students getting shoved, knocked down, hit, trampled, etc. One of our students may have fractured his foot on Saturday morning due to the mad rush when the doors opened.

This year security actually tried to enforce a line, up until about 6:30-6:45. Right around then the 1 person they had out there was completely overwhelmed by the massive quantities of people showing up and effectively ceased to have any authority. This resulted in the 4 teams who were there hours early getting in first, the people who showed up at 6:45 and line jumped getting in next, and the 20 teams who got there after the first 4 (and stood in line like they were supposed to) getting in about 200 people after they should have. This is completely unfair to those who followed the process but failed to be at the very front of the line.

Solution: more security outside, instead of inside.

Security likes to play the "guess the door" game. Stop being coy about which doors will open. Clearly label the doors that will be opening (and limit it to maybe 2-3 doors at the start) and it will be much easier to enforce the creation of a line. Teams will also have less opportunity to start sprinting once inside. If you got in front of the wrong doors 2 hours early you were just as screwed as showing up when the doors opened. Or teams (again) showed up at 6:45, stood in front of an empty doorway, and then that doorway opened when there had been no previous indication it would do so.

Stop counting down to the doors opening. This is incredibly dangerous as it actively encourages people to start shoving and running once the doors open.


I think some kind of coupon system could be wise. Barricade off the courtyard outside the doors, institute proper lines (maybe by division) and be there at 5:00-5:30 AM to distribute tickets to the first x people in line for maybe 2-3 "zones". When you get to your field, you have to show your tickets to go down in the seats. This wouldn't be terribly difficult to do and only needs to be enforced for the first few minutes. The teams who get there first get the seats they want and nobody needs to run because anyone who jumps them in line won't have the right "zone" tickets.

That still adds complexity to a situation that just needs order outside the doors, though. After 20 years you'd think FIRST could figure out how to make people form a proper queue. If they could do that and have fewer entrances for the first few minutes then everything would get a lot better.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by efoote868

2 of the 10 you listed don't need a nice view of the field. Also I'm not quite sure what you mean by "strategic scouts," but if you have all 6 robots covered then surely you'll get all interactions on the field.

Those two extra usually are needed to manage the scouting system on site--remember that WiFi is illegal in the venue and that the system either needs to be hardwired together or paper passed to a central person after every match. (I'm curious as to your alternative proposal for data management with only 6 people sitting together.) Also in our experience, 6 scouts can only follow a portion of what happens on the field. We had 2 additional strategic scouts and what they provided was the extra part that made our alliance selection strategy work so successfully in Curie. One additional point--the team needs to be able to rotate scouts--there's no way that anyone can pay attention straight through for hours without a break. 10 is a minimum.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

Those two extra usually are needed to manage the scouting system on site--remember that WiFi is illegal in the venue and that the system either needs to be hardwired together or paper passed to a central person after every match. (I'm curious as to your alternative proposal for data management with only 6 people sitting together.) Also in our experience, 6 scouts can only follow a portion of what happens on the field. We had 2 additional strategic scouts and what they provided was the extra part that made our alliance selection strategy work so successfully in Curie. One additional point--the team needs to be able to rotate scouts--there's no way that anyone can pay attention straight through for hours without a break. 10 is a minimum.

I agree and we do the same, but do all 10 don't have to be in those seats at once if you're rotating them? We'd be fine with 8 seats where people could switch in and out.

[efoote868]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

Those two extra usually are needed to manage the scouting system on site--remember that WiFi is illegal in the venue and that the system either needs to be hardwired together or paper passed to a central person after every match. (I'm curious as to your alternative proposal for data management with only 6 people sitting together.) Also in our experience, 6 scouts can only follow a portion of what happens on the field. We had 2 additional strategic scouts and what they provided was the extra part that made our alliance selection strategy work so successfully in Curie. One additional point--the team needs to be able to rotate scouts--there's no way that anyone can pay attention straight through for hours without a break. 10 is a minimum.

My suggestion is a block of no more than 6 reserved "prime" seats.

There is usually a 3-5 minute break between matches. Scouts can get their assignment for say, 6-8 matches, take their notes, then swap out with fresh scouts, deposit their notes at the central location (which doesn't need prime seating and typically will have lots of files / equipment with it, takes lots of room).

Plenty of time. Also, you don't need to watch every robot every match. You could watch one side the entire event, and you should get each robot at least 3-4 times. You could also pair up with another team to take notes, and you'd have a block of 12 eyes on the field. Use the extra 3 people to watch interactions.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

But we've already left it up to the teams to police themselves. That's how we got to this mess in the first place. To just simply say: it's not that big a deal is to act as if it didn't happen when it's obviously a problem that needs to be dealt with. And if it requires FIRST to intervien personally to solve it then they should.

I agree. This is a classic "tragedy of the commons" problem that needs to be addressed by FIRST. Almost all of the environmental problems of our world have arisen from similar circumstances, and all require some sort of intervention to be solved.