Limit team $

[TEAM1100soft506]

Originally Posted by SciBorg Dave

To balance the playing field for all team what do you think of a limit of say $50,000 to run a team. This would keep all teams working hard to keep within the limit ( what ever it set at). I find that there is a big difference rural teams who struggle to raise $10,000 for the season and urban teams that have better sources to raise funds ( I know some who raise $100,000) for the season.

A little bit ago, I made a similar statement where it was quickly explained to me why this was a bad idea. While i do feel it some teams are at a disadvantage due to lack of money, and i did find that many people feel the same way about this, a budget restriction is not the way to accomplish this.

[Peter Matteson]

Originally Posted by SciBorg Dave

To balance the playing field for all team what do you think of a limit of say $50,000 to run a team. This would keep all teams working hard to keep within the limit ( what ever it set at). I find that there is a big difference rural teams who struggle to raise $10,000 for the season and urban teams that have better sources to raise funds ( I know some who raise $100,000) for the season.

So theoretical team XXXX has who raise $50,000 every year has an unfair advantage even through we don'tknow how they spend that money?

I know of teams that spend most of their budget subsidising students to travel to events. Does that really contribute to their competitiveness?

What about teams that run multiple FTC and VEX programs from their single 501?

How about teams that use the money they raise for community programs?

Most of the highly competitive teams spend way less than you insinuate in your post. Yes there are outlier exceptions but most of the top tier teams aren't even close to the $50K number.

There is a way to get further with your money by spending it wisely to get the right tools and make the right connections so that you can increase your capability.

You really need to talk to more people on the teams that you want to emulate. You will find that your conceptions of them are wrong.

[Phyrxes]

Originally Posted by Peter Matteson

...You really need to talk to more people on the teams that you want to emulate. You will find that your conceptions of them are wrong.

That sounds exactly what I told our students that traveled to St. Louis this year, go talk to teams, make connections and we will create our off-season game plan. I specially challenged them to talk to teams they considered "elite" and ask questions.

They collected e-mails and business cards and are ready to attack their off-season projects.

[Chief Hedgehog]

A tale of two cities...

This is a tale of two competing FRC teams separated by a river and an ocean of ideologies.

'Team B' invited 'Team M' to take part in a dual-school effort where they could find support from the teams combined local industries, thus creating a combined effort of achievement.

'Team M' decided that they would be best served by being supported by their local school and therefore arrested by the constraints of the school district. They received start-up monies and a coaching salary based upon their district's schedule C.

'Team B' continued on the path of resourcing the local industries and companies.

'Team M' found early success by being supported by their district, and thus looked no further.

'Team B' was not supported by their district, yet continued to find support from local industries and beyond.

[IKE]

Originally Posted by SciBorg Dave

To balance the playing field for all team what do you think of a limit of say $50,000 to run a team. This would keep all teams working hard to keep within the limit ( what ever it set at). I find that there is a big difference rural teams who struggle to raise $10,000 for the season and urban teams that have better sources to raise funds ( I know some who raise $100,000) for the season.

Raht than limit the upper end, I would much rather work on a solution where $10K is a reasonable amount for a team to have a good "season". My thoughts on what this season would look like would be a minimum of 2 events. Right now there is way too much risk of going to 1 event, and having a dead CRIO ruin your weekend, or a flaky digital sidecar ruining your season.. 2 events gives reasonable opportunity to get the robot behaving as it should (though maybe not as a team hopes). I inspected a lot of robots this year, and for about $1500, a team can have a very competitive robot. So current budget is Kit + registration for 2 events + $1500 additional material cost.
The next big line item for most teams is travel. Hotel stays even at a cheap place with 4 kids/ room is $80 or $20/Kid/night. A 2 night stay with 20 kids and a couple of mentors will run 20 kids x $20/night x 2 nights plus a couple rooms for mentors = $1000/event... This isn't cheap. Maybe if events are close enough, then only 1 event would require travel...So where were we on budget:
Kit + 2 event registration +$1500(robot) + $1000 travel (for 1 event).
T-Shirts=2x$10 per kid or another $500 (mentor shirts as well).

Kit + 2 event +$1500 +$1000(hotel) + $500 (shirts)=$3000 + Kit + 2 event registration.

Here in Michigan, for most teams (UP excluded), this is $8000 and is reasonable. I have not included food as you need to eat anyway. I have not included transportation, as I think parents can either work that out, or the team can figure out a way for $2000 to get to the competitions.
This is my $10K season budget. I know a lot of teams that operate with a very similar budget.

Some of the "big budget" teams will roll meals into the travel. At $15/kid/day, this can be an additional $1200. They may build a practice bot as well. Without the KOP, the practice bot is actually costs a lot more $5K compared to a KOP based $1500 robot. Assume $5K for the second robot. They might also stay in a hotel for 2 events:
Thus the $10K budget now is $20K. If they are good enough to go to States, add in another 3 nights stay $2000 plus food $1000 plus registration $4000 plus spares (3 events), and you are now up around $30,000 budget.

With the "robot" costs and registration at $5K(base registration)+$1500(1st robot material) +$4K (States or Championship) + $5K practice bot = $15,500-ish. This means the other $15K is for the 20 kids plus a couple of mentors, or roughly $500-800 per student/year. Many "big budget" teams might ahve 40 students. Thus the $30K budget blows up to $45K in a hurry.

If you have to fly... costs get crazy really fast.

Thus, if you want to make it more even for a $10K team to compete, instead of capping teams at $50K, I would recommend pushing to get more "local" events or shifting to the district model. I am not saying that in the District model, a $10K team is equal or even with a $100K team, but they are more reasonably close than a $10K team competing against a $50K team in a regional set-up.

What can you do to bring districts to your area? Find a parent or volunteer that can help fill a key role (referee, inspector, event coordinator, volunteer coordinator....).

[MrJohnston]

No.

We have over 100 students and 20 active mentors on our team. It cost us about $60,000 just to attend Nationals (less than half the team attended)and anotehr $15,000 to attend our second regional - only 2hrs away from us - and these costs do not include entry fees.

The $4000 robot cost is a great constraint and equalizer already.... Besides travel, here are other things that just plain cost more due to the size of our team:

* Training materials.
* Tools.
* Workspace (we built a shop this year)
* Additional training/practice robots - so that *all* kids can work on something.

[TEAM1100soft506]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

No.

We have over 100 students and 20 active mentors on our team. It cost us about $60,000 just to attend Nationals (less than half the team attended)and anotehr $15,000 to attend our second regional - only 2hrs away from us - and these costs do not include entry fees.

The $4000 robot cost is a great constraint and equalizer already.... Besides travel, here are other things that just plain cost more due to the size of our team:

* Training materials.
* Tools.
* Workspace (we built a shop this year)
* Additional training/practice robots - so that *all* kids can work on something.

I agree. my team is 60 students and close to 20 active mentors. from that we brought 40 students and 9 mentors to St. Louis. We drained our bank account so much that we cant pay for a bus to get to our favorite off season event, Battlecry 14 at WPI. Money is a huge problem for my team (but I am working to fix that.) I do think that a 4000$ limit for the robot might make things interesting.

[PVCpirate]

Originally Posted by TEAM1100soft506

I do think that a 4000$ limit for the robot might make things interesting.

This already exists, its in the manual.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Just to remind everyone,
1. Different parts of this country vary wildly in local costs and travel costs. Other countries are extremely different.
2. Some schools cover things like bus travel while other teams must pay for everything.
3. Some teams have very generous sponsors while others struggle to find materials and labor.
4. Small teams have significantly lower costs compared to larger teams for things like food, travel, tshirts, and other operating expenses.
For these reasons it is nearly impossible to impose a fixed amount that is equal without making most teams suffer.

[stoutman777]

Our team's largest budget we've ever had (this year) was around $17,000 and we thought we seemed to think we had money coming out of our ears.

[DonRotolo]

I think it has all been said, but this is not a good way to accomplish your goal.

As for the Hawaii teams, can't they just drive over?

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

I think it has all been sad, but this is not a good way to accomplish your goal.

As for the Hawaii teams, can't they just drive over?

Not sure about driving, but I'm sure they can sail across

[TikiTech]

Love it,

Though I suggest going straight to Long Beach Harbor and save yourself the 1000+ miles of driving...

Can you imagine the 11+ days of ocean travel...

Makes my stomach roll thinking about that voyage

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by TikiTech

Love it,

Though I suggest going straight to Long Beach Harbor and save yourself the 1000+ miles of driving...

Can you imagine the 11+ days of ocean travel...

Makes my stomach roll thinking about that voyage

I'm assuming google optimized the path based on the curvature of the earth and ocean currents.

[pmangels17]

Teams with 10 people need a different budget from teams with 75-100 people. Putting a budget cap would be detrimental to teams that need to spend a lot more on travel due to their numbers, especially when large teams do a lot of good work because of their numbers (not discrediting small teams, who do fantastic things as well). Because there are so many different sizes of team, a budget cap would almost limit the number of students in some ways, which would be the opposite of the goal of FIRST. Also, teams all have different fabrication technques. Some teams like to use 80/20 aluminum, while others prefer to have welding, waterjet, CNC, and sheet metal parts. Each method requires its own set of tools, which cost different amounts of money. Also, teams can only spend so much money on the robot, so capping the overal budget doesn't allow teams to do outreach, or build practice fields (many of which are open to neighboring teams either by invitation, free admission, or request). Teams that have large budgets don't save that money, they use it to further the mission of FIRST. I am not on a team with a massive budget, and I'm proud to say that we do good work for what we have, but I have nothing against teams that have lots of money, since the students on those teams work very hard to get those resources, and they put it to good use.