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#1
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Re: Forums not used as much anymore
CD opinion is the collective wisdom of nearly fifteen years of uninterrupted discussion on many topics. Think about that for a bit -- fifteen years. There's something to be said for the conclusions that have been drawn by this community and the topics that come up over and over again have been hashed out pretty thoroughly. It's rare for someone to offer a new wrinkle in these debates and our reluctance to entertain them again and again shows this.
How would the scientific community react to someone that wanted to argue against the existence of gravity, but provided no new, compelling evidence to support their theory? I have a few thoughts about why there's less technical discussion happening today than in the past, but they're not fully baked. I think, generally, that there are fewer authoritative voices in the discussion today and that people posing questions do not adequately communicate respect for the authorities they're soliciting help from. That is to say that it seems like people are asking for answers before having done any research on their own; or that they ask a question and receive an answer, but never reply to acknowledge the help they've received. That makes people answering questions work harder and they receive less in return. That's lose-lose for everyone. I don't know how you fix problems like these. They seem institutional; like there's been a great shift in the attitude of students in the last ten years or so. |
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#2
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Re: Forums not used as much anymore
There are less website posts now, but let's not forget what 1114 and 254 did earlier this year with their facebook and twitter campaigns to release a robot reveal picture and video respectively. I think if you included that in the data it might change things a little bit...
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#3
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Re: Forums not used as much anymore
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The makeup of the Internet has changed in the past 10 years. 10 years ago there was no Skype, Google+, or Facebook. Chief Delphi (and the little-used official FIRST forums) were perhaps one of the only places that members of the FIRST community could network online. Now, on a daily basis, there is a ton of FIRST interaction and discussion on Facebook on dozens of pages and groups. Teams can help one another via Skype or Google+. Teams have better websites than ever with more resources. There is a higher number of experienced mentors in general, and events like "kit bot build days" are more common, helping bring new teams up to speed with greater success than before. I don't think it's a change in the attitude of students, more a change in how this interaction occurs. I know students on our team are never hesitant to post on Chief Delphi when they have a question, but often the problem gets solved another way first. |
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#4
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Re: Forums not used as much anymore
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Many of the issues that the controversial threads are about are unlike gravity because they are very much grey areas, like mentor/student built, team organization, etc. People who are new to the program, of which there are THOUSANDS each year, are not familiar with the nuances of these issues, much like a freshman physics major is not familiar with the nuances of quantum physics. Both of these things are very complicated matters. If a student had a new or different angle on the topic, should the entire physics department run into the room and each repeat the same explanation of why the student is wrong? By the same token, if someone has an unpopular(but thoughtful and respectful) view on this forum, does it need to spawn a 200 reply, mostly redundant thread? If you ask me, the student and the poster have one thing in common: they both get discouraged and find something else to do. |
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#5
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Re: Forums not used as much anymore
I think a lot of good points have been made so far... but I think we've almost ignored one HUGE possible reason: there was a new control system in 2009 that no one knew how to use. It was a massive change for everyone, and there was a ton of discussion about it as we all learned what was going on. As that first year with this control system progressed, teams figured it out (through their own trial and error and through threads on here). Since then, teams have had a good idea what to do and how to do it. New teams have had nearby local teams mentoring them, telling them how the control system works. And if someone has a question, if they use the search feature they might find an answer.
As a result, technical questions on the forums would naturally be expected to decline a bit. And yes, there will always be questions in other technical areas... but rarely do we, as a community, have a brand new technical area we all have to explore and figure out at the same time. It'll be interesting to see how things go with the new control system. I would expect to see an uptick in discussions once it comes out. |
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#6
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Re: Forums not used as much anymore
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#7
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Re: Forums not used as much anymore
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I would agree with what others have pointed out, most of the posts on CD consist of hive mind or hero worship, neither of which are productive. On an individual level, I would think the most productive thing is to simply not post in threads you don't find productive. CD's reputation for being a potentially hostile place is not new, I was aware of it when I signed up over 8 years ago. I actually thought early on there was more technical information being shared than usual. Whether it was Ri3D, #thebucketalliance, or the small wheeled shooter thread, I think there was much more to be gained by perusing CD in Weeks 1 and 2 than has historically been the case. During the competition season there is always less technical stuff being shared as people get caught up in the rush of competition and comparing minutia of the OPR of top tier robots. |
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#8
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Re: Forums not used as much anymore
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I think this community has far too strong of a knee jerk reaction. I hate to bring up the whole mentor built thing... But it's kind of illustrative. There's always that one thread every year (or three months) where some new poster says that they dislike the fact that some mentors have very active roles in building the robot. The rest of the thread (all 10 pages) is flaming of the OP and worshiping of the team that the OP mentioned in their first post. If we really all agree...why do we need to spend so much time saying so? After seeing how much time the community spends on this type of thread, should we really be surprised that this is what CD is increasingly all about? Do we think that it's really necessary to create and enforce some hostile and rather superficial hive conscience, at the cost of having a forum for used for real technical discussion? Perhaps I'm being either inflammatory or cynical, but I really dislike the fact that most CD discussions are so formulaic and devoid of real discussion. I didn't join to have people call me out on my opinions, or to annoy other people with them for that matter. I joined so that I could become respected in the community after adding to technical discussions and answering technical questions. However, I seem to spend a lot of my time putting out fires created after I disagree with what the CD community wants to believe. Sorry for rambling, just one of my "I felt like I needed to say it" posts. Last edited by DampRobot : 10-05-2013 at 02:33. |
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#9
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Re: Forums not used as much anymore
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Since CD's posting membership is skewed heavily towards old teams, successful teams and rich teams, it is no surprise that CD's opinion on things like mentor/student ratios, spending, and competition also skews towards "let the successful/rich/old teams continue doing what they're doing". Maybe that is the correct opinion for optimal FIRST sustainability, but it's also the conclusion you'd expect a group of mentors from the most successful teams in FIRST to come to. But I know from my first couple years as a student then mentor on some poor teams, the official CD opinion can be extremely and widely unpopular among the rank and file of teams. To avoid a debate: I must say that my own opinions have converged on the CD opinion over the years, but as someone who has been around for 10 years, I'm probably in an extremely small minority of all the mentors and teachers that have ever been involved. Last edited by Bongle : 10-05-2013 at 08:49. |
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#10
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Re: Forums not used as much anymore
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#11
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Re: Forums not used as much anymore
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I'll also send a PM instead of a red rep. I've done that a time or two. The way I look at a lot of things is: "They" have an opinion, based on some evidence/assumptions. I have a different opinion, based on different evidence/assumptions. If I'm going to change an opinion, assuming it even needs changing, then I have only one option: Present my evidence/assumptions as a counter to "their" evidence/assumptions, and let them figure out whether they agree or disagree. And, anybody who thinks my opinion needs changing is welcome to do the same to me--as long as it's not a personal attack, I'll almost certainly be OK with that. Doing that can lead to some very interesting discussion, which may actually be instructive to everyone involved. |
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#12
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Re: Forums not used as much anymore
Who would be open to an experiment: hide the reputation count from view in the thread.
It could still be visible on the profile page and the member list, so that the information isn't lost—just a little less emphasized. And maybe one's own reputation could appear below the welcome message in the top right—just so you're accountable for your own behaviour. This could also be implemented as a profile option (enabled by default), so that anyone who dislikes the change can restore their preference. Granted, responders will also see other cues like post count, rookie year and join date—but I think those represent something very different than reputation, because they inherently take years to develop. |
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#13
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Re: Forums not used as much anymore
Just a quick question... How much do people pay attention to rep? I have to be completely honest - I didn't even notice it for the first couple of years, and after I did I didn't really care. When I read posts, I don't look at the rep when evaluating the post. I only look at my own rep every few months to make sure I'm not doing something stupid that people don't like.
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#14
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Re: Forums not used as much anymore
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On the note of threads in the Off-topic forum, threads such as the Brony thread generating "noise" isn't a bad thing. Which would you rather have, users continuing to use CD and building relationships with each other even if the discussion isn't about robots and FIRST 24/7, or CD sitting inactive because it is a place only for "serious business"? Maybe it's just because I think Bronyism and internet meme culture is hilarious but I prefer the former. Sometimes a user needs some silly threads or outside interest discussion to keep them coming back to CD, and that gives them the chance to see other threads elsewhere in the forums that may catch their interest and spark a bit of inspiration. You don't have to see the Off-Topic threads either, use the "Recent Posts Config." under the User Control Panel to only view the forums you think are worth seeing and set the threads shown number to something absurdly high. That's what I do and filter out half the site because I've figured out that I almost never contribute anything to sub-forums like Off-topic, CAD, the Rumor Mill, etc. It allows me to quickly get up to speed on CD without having to leave the main portal. |
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#15
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Re: Forums not used as much anymore
I didn't care about it at all until I received my very first (and as of this moment only) red dot earlier this year, ironically due to a post which in part complained of the hive mentality.
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