KC Regional Considering District Model

[Alpha Beta]

Attended an interesting meeting put on by KC FIRST where area representatives (students and coaches) were asked to think about how a single regional with a dense local population, (but isolated by substantial distance from other regional events) could transition to a district system. The meeting emphasized that no decisions had been made yet and the committee was highly interested in collecting the opinions of local FRC teams.

Below is the proposal we were asked to consider (as best as I can remember)to help facilitate our discussion.

In place of the Greater Kansas City Regional in expensive Hale arena

• Hold the event over 2 Thursday, Friday, Saturday weekends (not necessarily consecutive) in KC area high school gymnasiums. (No specific locations were discussed.)
• Both weekends would start Thursday afterschool and allow a 6 hour “fix-it” window before each weekend where teams could unbag the robot as compensation for the late start on Thursdays.
• First weekend would be all qualification matches and end with an award ceremony Saturday evening with the awards a traditional regional would give away on Friday.
• Second weekend would continue with qualification matches and end with a standard 8 alliance elimination bracket.
• Qualifications for champs would be the traditional Regional Winners, RCA, EI, & RAS. (There was no discussion on if wildcards would be applicable.)
• Entrance fee still $5,000.

[Alpha Beta]

Some Pro’s from the meeting:

• More than twice as many qualification matches for a single $5,000 entry fee.
• After passing inspection and trying out the robot on a real field teams would still have a 6 hour fix-it window in their own shops to make improvements and then compete again.

o This could make a huge difference for those teams who struggle to compete the first weekend, especially if they can make some contacts with other teams to share resources or expertise before finishing their season!

• More qualification matches will give the ranking system for selecting alliance captains a better data set to function in and perhaps overcome some of the qualification schedule randomness.
• High School gymnasiums will force a smaller tournament size (Hale Arena was rated for up to 64 teams) and give each team a greater chance of being selected for eliminations.
• More time for judges to make the best selection for the traditional “Friday Night” awards.
• Significant cost savings over the large arena which (If corporate donors maintain their current level of giving) might be able to be used as grants to help offset travel expenses for those who would require hotel stays for the additional weekend.

Some Con’s from the meeting:

• All teams have to commit to both weekends, increasing the time commitment significantly over our current system.
• Need twice as many volunteers or a bigger time commitment from our current slate of volunteers.
• Concern that the grandeur of the event, and its ability to attract sponsors, will be diminished.
• This event model has a smaller capacity and as a stand-alone event (instead of one that includes a district championship) has limited room for growth.
• Would miss some of the competitive level and inspiration that the teams who travel in from more distant locations bring to the tournament.

FYI: According to FIRST there were 39 teams within a 50 mile radius of Hale Arena’s Zip Code that competed in “Ultimate Ascent”. (And according to “Where in the world is FIRST” it looks like there are another 7 or 8 teams a little farther out who can claim KC as their closest regional.) There was no discussion on if there would be a geographical area that would be given priority registration in this model, but it is one of the pressing questions.

[lpickett]

How would robots be stored between weekends? Would they have to be bagged and tagged again? Couldn't they use another venue that would have the space for one weekend instead of two?

[EricH]

You guys are crazy--in a good way.

I think the biggest problem would be ensuring everybody showed up both weekends; however, that could be worked around I'm sure. You'll probably lose the out-of-area teams that don't want to stay a couple extra weeks, or go and come back, but you won't have to create an artificial boundary to do so; the distance should take care of a lot of that.

If those can be lived with, I think you might be on to one of the best options for bringing districts to areas without the density for normal districts that I've seen (not that I've seen many of those). Something tells me that you'll have a few of the Hawaii teams watching closely if you do go for it.

@lpickett: As noted above, the current venue is rated at 64 teams (the 2013 event hosted 55), so the issue is not space. As I understand the proposal, teams would take their robots home, get 6 hours out of the bag, and bring them back, much like an MI or MAR district setup, but instead of two separate events, play one single event with a much longer timeframe. Imagine being able to take your robot back to your home shop between Friday and Saturday of a regional, and that's the rough equivalent.

[Tom Ore]

I'd like to understand what the long term plan is. The last several years we've competed at KC and Minnesota events - if both go district we'll be looking for new regionals.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Alpha Beta

Attended an interesting meeting put on by KC FIRST where area representatives (students and coaches) were asked to think about how a single regional with a dense local population, (but isolated by substantial distance from other regional events) could transition to a district system. The meeting emphasized that no decisions had been made yet and the committee was highly interested in collecting the opinions of local FRC teams.

Below is the proposal we were asked to consider (as best as I can remember)to help facilitate our discussion.

In place of the Greater Kansas City Regional in expensive Hale arena

• Hold the event over 2 Thursday, Friday, Saturday weekends (not necessarily consecutive) in KC area high school gymnasiums. (No specific locations were discussed.)
• Both weekends would start Thursday afterschool and allow a 6 hour “fix-it” window before each weekend where teams could unbag the robot as compensation for the late start on Thursdays.
• First weekend would be all qualification matches and end with an award ceremony Saturday evening with the awards a traditional regional would give away on Friday.
• Second weekend would continue with qualification matches and end with a standard 8 alliance elimination bracket.
• Qualifications for champs would be the traditional Regional Winners, RCA, EI, & RAS. (There was no discussion on if wildcards would be applicable.)
• Entrance fee still $5,000.

That's an interesting idea. How many robots are in the KC area?

In the Michigan District system we get a bag window before the event. It's much more beneficial to have your bag window with your robot at your facility, with your full set of tools and resources.

In addition, with an event that big you are going to have a horrid amount of time between matches. In the Michigan system it's unusual to have more than 1 hour between matches, and many times it's a 30-45 minute turn around. Going to worlds and having huge downtime between matches stinks, quite frankly.

In addition, that means a full field teardown in the middle of your event.

Would it be possible to do it at two venues, have individual competitions, and simply go on a point basis of who qualifies for worlds? Especially for the mentors, taking off multiple vacation days for the same event would really stink.

[Alpha Beta]

Originally Posted by lpickett

How would robots be stored between weekends? Would they have to be bagged and tagged again?

Rebagged and taken back home. Keep in mind that the weekends may not be consecutive depending on when gymnasiums can be acquired. Teams might even travel to another regional event in the middle of the process if the weeks were far enough apart.

Originally Posted by lpickett

Couldn't they use another venue that would have the space for one weekend instead of two?

Yes, that is what we have now with Hale Arena, and besides the continued escalating costs for the arena there is no pressing need to change. What we do have is an opportunity to change if the perceived bennefit is great enough.

As more regions move to districts with closed borders local teams may find themselves with diminishing opportunities to attend a 2nd regional. This proposal helps to mitigate that problem and makes additional match play accesssible for teams who cannot afford that opportunity now.

Many have dreamed of an era when all of FIRST moves to a district model. Maybe then we can drop the artificial borders which preclude teams from playing wherever they want to. Perhaps when that day comes teams will be invited to Super Regionals based on geographic location and a point system where they can then qualify for the World Championship. This would be similar to how MSC and the MAR Championship are conducted now. One of the great challenges in this transition is developing the volunteer infrastructure at the local level to make it work. This proposal would allow us to start developing that in Kansas City in preparation for that future.

[Alpha Beta]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

That's an interesting idea. How many robots are in the KC area?

Somewhere between 39 and 48.

In the Michigan District system we get a bag window before the event. It's much more beneficial to have your bag window with your robot at your facility, with your full set of tools and resources.

Exactly. This would provide that same bennefit to KC area teams that FiM and MAR teams currently enjoy.

In addition, with an event that big you are going to have a horrid amount of time between matches. In the Michigan system it's unusual to have more than 1 hour between matches, and many times it's a 30-45 minute turn around. Going to worlds and having huge downtime between matches stinks, quite frankly.

I imagine the event would have to be capped at 48 teams to fit in a high school venue. This happens to matches our current numbers locally.

In addition, that means a full field teardown in the middle of your event.

One of the consequences of trying to create a "season" for our sport instead of just an "event".

Would it be possible to do it at two venues, have individual competitions, and simply go on a point basis of who qualifies for worlds? Especially for the mentors, taking off multiple vacation days for the same event would really stink.

Currently FiM mentors take off 3 weekends (Two district events and MSC) before qualifying for Worlds. This would only be 2, albeit one of those weekends does not have elimination matches. FiM and MAR were created by folding in multiple regional events and thus had more than the traditional 6 berths for Worlds to offer. The point system helps decide who deserves them. Since this is a single event making the transition there are no additional berths to give out besides the standard 6. There is also no intermediate district championship to "pay for" before attending Worlds.

Full Discloser: I am not on the committee making this proposal but I was able to attend the meeting and hear the information first hand. I'll admit this proposal does not sound like a permanent solution, but rather a transitionary state before we grow large enough (or combine with enough other more distant areas) to develop a FiM style super regional.

[Alpha Beta]

Originally Posted by Tom Ore

I'd like to understand what the long term plan is. The last several years we've competed at KC and Minnesota events - if both go district we'll be looking for new regionals.

I here what you're saying Tom, and that concern was certainly brought up at the meeting. The meeting was more of a time to gather these types concerns than it was to actually answer them though. Maybe we'll know more by the time CowTown ThrowDown rolls around at the beginning of November. Would love to see you come down, especially since we didn't get to play together at all in 2013.

[PVCpirate]

Kansas City, you guys are on to something. Every establishment needs someone to come up with a crazy idea to keep it moving forward, and this just might be it. If you can come up with a way to accomplish the goals of the districts with a smaller group of teams, and it works, the landscape of FRC could radically change. Good luck with this, I'll be watching.

[Tom Ore]

Originally Posted by Alpha Beta

Maybe we'll know more by the time CowTown ThrowDown rolls around at the beginning of November. Would love to see you come down, especially since we didn't get to play together at all in 2013.

The school limits us to two out of state trips a year, with special permission to also go to champs if we qualify. That's the main reason we haven't gone to any off season events.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Alpha Beta

Somewhere between 39 and 48.

Exactly. This would provide that same bennefit to KC area teams that FiM and MAR teams currently enjoy.

I imagine the event would have to be capped at 48 teams to fit in a high school venue. This happens to matches our current numbers locally.

One of the consequences of trying to create a "season" for our sport instead of just an "event".



Currently FiM mentors take off 3 weekends (Two district events and MSC) before qualifying for Worlds. This would only be 2, albeit one of those weekends does not have elimination matches. FiM and MAR were created by folding in multiple regional events and thus had more than the traditional 6 berths for Worlds to offer. The point system helps decide who deserves them. Since this is a single event making the transition there are no additional berths to give out besides the standard 6. There is also no intermediate district championship to "pay for" before attending Worlds.

Full Discloser: I am not on the committee making this proposal but I was able to attend the meeting and hear the information first hand. I'll admit this proposal does not sound like a permanent solution, but rather a transitionary state before we grow large enough (or combine with enough other more distant areas) to develop a FiM style super regional.

That helps me understand what you guys are up against. I was hoping you had more teams than that.

I still would support two seperate competitions and move them several weeks apart. Bag windows + 2 competitions back to back is pretty hard and stressful on everyone. The teams are going to learn a lot from eachother at the first competition, and by spacing them out I think they would have a better chance of putting those new ideas into practice.

[CalTran]

THIS DOES NOT REFLECT THE THOUGHTS OF TEAM 2410

I wasn't a huge fan when Mr. Ritter told me about it. I love the idea of up to 20(!) qualification matches, but I wasn't so much a fan of splitting it up over 2 weekends. You make a good argument for the plan, but I just didn't like the proposal. It seems much too cumbersome to spread Greater KC over 2 (possibly non-consecutive) weekends just for one competition. It also meant that suddenly instead of 6 weeks to choose from, we would have this and then pick from the remaining 4 weeks of competition, and keep in mind that our robot has to be working and back before the eliminations. Maybe it's just how familiar I am with the Michigan system. I like the district system and all, but I just don't think it's quite time for the Kansas City area to transition.

Greater KC was an amazing home grown event where we had our closely knit teams and the occasional out of regional-er whom we would warmly welcome and, for lack of a better term, assimilate into our home. If it switched to the proposed system, then we would have to take a serious look at attending.

[DonRotolo]

I like the idea in general, but do not like the idea of two 3-day competitions, both starting on Thursday.

One of the best things about MAR is that most competitions are Saturday/Sunday, so I do not have to take a day off work to attend. Parents (and administrations) like that no school is missed.

The 6-hour window is to compensate for the loss of the traditional Thursday practice session. I would question having a six hour fix it window for a 3 day event...

Nonetheless: the right way to go about creating such a system, is to gather lots of input from all those involved and be very transparent with how decisions are made. You won't be able to please everyone, but you can design the system so that almost everyone can live with it.

From experience, having all those extra matches really helps a lot of teams who usually won't attend a second regional.

Good luck and keep us informed.

[Alpha Beta]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

One of the best things about MAR is that most competitions are Saturday/Sunday, so I do not have to take a day off work to attend. Parents (and administrations) like that no school is missed.

Due to scheduling conflicts KC FIRST held their inaugurral FTC tournament on a Sunday morning this year. Many objected to school events trying to encroach on a time slot traditionally reserved for church/worship. My personal feelings aside I would not be able to make the pitch in my community that they should choose robotics over other Sunday morning options.

The 6-hour window is to compensate for the loss of the traditional Thursday practice session. I would question having a six hour fix it window for a 3 day event...

I'm not sure what Thursday agendas would be like. My first thought is that it would be somewhat like champs. Start in late afternoon after the traditional work day has ended, say 5:00. Only skeleton crews allowed. Permitted tasks limited to unbagging the robot, passing inspection and maybe setting up the pit. Dependening on the venue field set-up might be going on at the same time so as to minimize the disruption of facilities to the host school. Practice matches Friday morning, with qualification matches starting after lunch. Just spitballing here, I've really got no inside information.

Currently local teams miss 2 days of school to attend the regional event (Thrusday and Friday). In this model students would still miss just 2 days of school (Friday, Friday) and some would argue that it is easier to make those days up when they are not consecutive.

My initial thoughts upon hearing this proposal were not overwhelming positive. In my opinion the Greater Kansas City regional is one of the finest in the Nation. The level of competitions is always very solid, the dancing and cheering is the most energetic I've seen anywhere. The volunteers are top notch. Why mess with near perfection?

The idea continues to grow on me as I realize it is not about trying to make the top teams better as much as it is about improving the experience for the bottom half of the league. There are many teams whose robots do not meet their performance expectations at their first event, but they might be dramatically improved for a second event if they could afford to go. Sports are about teams getting better over the course of a season and peaking at the right time. This model gives teams just a little longer to "peak" if they don't come out of the gates great.