KC Regional Considering District Model

[runneals]

Originally Posted by Tom Ore

The school limits us to two out of state trips a year, with special permission to also go to champs if we qualify. That's the main reason we haven't gone to any off season events.

Tom, I'm just throwing this out there (and this will sound crazy), but is there a reason we don't have a regional/event in Iowa? I imagine we could easily get all the Iowa Teams, a few Missouri, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Minnesota teams to come over... I think that we could pretty easily get 60+ teams who would want to play against the Iowa power houses, that would be a stones throw away
If KC moves towards districts, this might be something for all of us Iowa teams to consider checking into. When we were in KC I was thinking to myself, "Wouldn't the State Fairgrounds Jacobson Center make a GREAT place for a regional?" Since it does sit in the crossroads of 35 & 80! haha

[Tom Ore]

Originally Posted by runneals

Tom, I'm just throwing this out there (and this will sound crazy), but is there a reason we don't have a regional/event in Iowa? I imagine we could easily get all the Iowa Teams, a few Missouri, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Minnesota teams to come over... I think that we could pretty easily get 60+ teams who would want to play against the Iowa power houses, that would be a stones throw away
If KC moves towards districts, this might be something for all of us Iowa teams to consider checking into. When we were in KC I was thinking to myself, "Wouldn't the State Fairgrounds Jacobson Center make a GREAT place for a regional?" Since it does sit in the crossroads of 35 & 80! haha

Could be a challenge once Minnesota goes to district format but I'd love to see it happen. Iowa is the home of the new FTC super regional so we have some FIRST success here - even though FRC has lagged a bit.

[runneals]

Originally Posted by Tom Ore

Could be a challenge once Minnesota goes to district format but I'd love to see it happen. Iowa is the home of the new FTC super regional so we have some FIRST success here - even though FRC has lagged a bit.

I don't know if this would be possible, but looking at the schedule from last year, it might be... Wouldn't it be cool to have a SUPER Super Regional?!? Combine our FTC super regional with an FRC regional? Again, I think that the state fairgrounds (or maybe the events complex) would be a great place for it. Thoughts?

I want to thank Aaron for describing what happened in that meeting. I wasn't able to attend but was told information would be posted on the KC FIRST website soon after. However, a month later, no word from anyone about it. I do understand that this is something that needs to be made official before anything is announced. I'm just glad I randomly stumbled on this thread.

Now about the potential move to this semi-district model. I can see the advantages as far as more qualification matches go, but I can't say I like much beyond that. KC by itself has a bunch of teams in the metro area (which is fairly sizable), but it's very sporadic once you get out of the general area. Until the number of teams increases, then I think the current regional format works until a nation-wide district system is implemented.

As it is, Hale Arena is the cheapest venue in all of FIRST. With the square footage that is available, it's an amazing deal and my favorite venue that I've ever been in for a competition (I am slightly biased ). So I'm slightly confused as to how the RPC is wanting to move to save money, yet regionals in much more expensive venues are still operating.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Alpha Beta

Attended an interesting meeting put on by KC FIRST where area representatives (students and coaches) were asked to think about how a single regional with a dense local population, (but isolated by substantial distance from other regional events) could transition to a district system. The meeting emphasized that no decisions had been made yet and the committee was highly interested in collecting the opinions of local FRC teams.

Below is the proposal we were asked to consider (as best as I can remember)to help facilitate our discussion.

In place of the Greater Kansas City Regional in expensive Hale arena

• Hold the event over 2 Thursday, Friday, Saturday weekends (not necessarily consecutive) in KC area high school gymnasiums. (No specific locations were discussed.)
• Both weekends would start Thursday afterschool and allow a 6 hour “fix-it” window before each weekend where teams could unbag the robot as compensation for the late start on Thursdays.
• First weekend would be all qualification matches and end with an award ceremony Saturday evening with the awards a traditional regional would give away on Friday.
• Second weekend would continue with qualification matches and end with a standard 8 alliance elimination bracket.
• Qualifications for champs would be the traditional Regional Winners, RCA, EI, & RAS. (There was no discussion on if wildcards would be applicable.)
• Entrance fee still $5,000.

That's an interesting idea. How many robots are in the KC area?

In the Michigan District system we get a bag window before the event. It's much more beneficial to have your bag window with your robot at your facility, with your full set of tools and resources.

In addition, with an event that big you are going to have a horrid amount of time between matches. In the Michigan system it's unusual to have more than 1 hour between matches, and many times it's a 30-45 minute turn around. Going to worlds and having huge downtime between matches stinks, quite frankly.

In addition, that means a full field teardown in the middle of your event.

Would it be possible to do it at two venues, have individual competitions, and simply go on a point basis of who qualifies for worlds? Especially for the mentors, taking off multiple vacation days for the same event would really stink.

[Alpha Beta]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

That's an interesting idea. How many robots are in the KC area?

Somewhere between 39 and 48.

In the Michigan District system we get a bag window before the event. It's much more beneficial to have your bag window with your robot at your facility, with your full set of tools and resources.

Exactly. This would provide that same bennefit to KC area teams that FiM and MAR teams currently enjoy.

In addition, with an event that big you are going to have a horrid amount of time between matches. In the Michigan system it's unusual to have more than 1 hour between matches, and many times it's a 30-45 minute turn around. Going to worlds and having huge downtime between matches stinks, quite frankly.

I imagine the event would have to be capped at 48 teams to fit in a high school venue. This happens to matches our current numbers locally.

In addition, that means a full field teardown in the middle of your event.

One of the consequences of trying to create a "season" for our sport instead of just an "event".

Would it be possible to do it at two venues, have individual competitions, and simply go on a point basis of who qualifies for worlds? Especially for the mentors, taking off multiple vacation days for the same event would really stink.

Currently FiM mentors take off 3 weekends (Two district events and MSC) before qualifying for Worlds. This would only be 2, albeit one of those weekends does not have elimination matches. FiM and MAR were created by folding in multiple regional events and thus had more than the traditional 6 berths for Worlds to offer. The point system helps decide who deserves them. Since this is a single event making the transition there are no additional berths to give out besides the standard 6. There is also no intermediate district championship to "pay for" before attending Worlds.

Full Discloser: I am not on the committee making this proposal but I was able to attend the meeting and hear the information first hand. I'll admit this proposal does not sound like a permanent solution, but rather a transitionary state before we grow large enough (or combine with enough other more distant areas) to develop a FiM style super regional.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Alpha Beta

Somewhere between 39 and 48.

Exactly. This would provide that same bennefit to KC area teams that FiM and MAR teams currently enjoy.

I imagine the event would have to be capped at 48 teams to fit in a high school venue. This happens to matches our current numbers locally.

One of the consequences of trying to create a "season" for our sport instead of just an "event".



Currently FiM mentors take off 3 weekends (Two district events and MSC) before qualifying for Worlds. This would only be 2, albeit one of those weekends does not have elimination matches. FiM and MAR were created by folding in multiple regional events and thus had more than the traditional 6 berths for Worlds to offer. The point system helps decide who deserves them. Since this is a single event making the transition there are no additional berths to give out besides the standard 6. There is also no intermediate district championship to "pay for" before attending Worlds.

Full Discloser: I am not on the committee making this proposal but I was able to attend the meeting and hear the information first hand. I'll admit this proposal does not sound like a permanent solution, but rather a transitionary state before we grow large enough (or combine with enough other more distant areas) to develop a FiM style super regional.

That helps me understand what you guys are up against. I was hoping you had more teams than that.

I still would support two seperate competitions and move them several weeks apart. Bag windows + 2 competitions back to back is pretty hard and stressful on everyone. The teams are going to learn a lot from eachother at the first competition, and by spacing them out I think they would have a better chance of putting those new ideas into practice.

[Drivencrazy]

I'm not sure I understand the point of this system over other potential systems. What is the true benefit of more than doubling the qualification matches with no increase in the number of intense elimination matches? Sure the more qualification matches you run the more "accurately" the standings will sort the teams. But what do teams get out of playing the same teams over and over again in qualification matches. With only 48 teams and 25+* qual matches you play with or against every team almost 3 times! Seems excessive to me.


Plus if you are going to change the model of the competition why not change the way teams are selected to go to the championship? What is stopping them from splitting it into two "district" events with the top three point accruing robots going to champs after the second event? Teams don't need 29 qual matches and then one set of elims. But they could use 20 qual matches and two sets of elims. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I think that the three "best" robots should accompany the RCA, EI, and RAS winners to the champs. Even though a two event system isn't nearly as good at this as say a 15 event system I think you would still get closer than just sending the winners from one event.

When I heard this idea I was sort of baffled. I hope this isn't what they end up going with. This totally takes away the clout from the event and I am almost positive that after the first year the RPC will see a significant drop in corporate financial support meaning that there will be even less money to give to teams that would have to travel a significant distance.

*Fri1:9am-6pm, Sat1: 9am-6pm, Fri2: 9am-6pm, Sat2: 9am-noon with 1 hour lunch breaks on Fri1, Fri2, Sat1 yields about 230 possible matches with a 7 min turnaround time. With 48 teams this turns out to a little over 29 matches per team.

[Mongai]

Originally Posted by CalTran

THIS DOES NOT REFLECT THE THOUGHTS OF TEAM 2410

I wasn't a huge fan when Mr. Ritter told me about it. I love the idea of up to 20(!) qualification matches, but I wasn't so much a fan of splitting it up over 2 weekends. You make a good argument for the plan, but I just didn't like the proposal. It seems much too cumbersome to spread Greater KC over 2 (possibly non-consecutive) weekends just for one competition. It also meant that suddenly instead of 6 weeks to choose from, we would have this and then pick from the remaining 4 weeks of competition, and keep in mind that our robot has to be working and back before the eliminations. Maybe it's just how familiar I am with the Michigan system. I like the district system and all, but I just don't think it's quite time for the Kansas City area to transition.

Greater KC was an amazing home grown event where we had our closely knit teams and the occasional out of regional-er whom we would warmly welcome and, for lack of a better term, assimilate into our home. If it switched to the proposed system, then we would have to take a serious look at attending.

In addition, teams like 935 would have to spend twice as much for gas and hotels (total of 12 hour drive time!). Funny thing is, KC is our closest regional.

[Alpha Beta]

Originally Posted by Mongai

In addition, teams like 935 would have to spend twice as much for gas and hotels (total of 12 hour drive time!). Funny thing is, KC is our closest regional.

Funny thing, when I Google city to city directions it places Oklahoma City 2 minutes closer to Newton than Kansas City, Missouri. Perhaps if I googled school to arena distances I might find KC closer. It's that close.

Regardless, the point is clear. In a less population dense area the GKC regional is the most attractive option for some relatively distant teams. Travel expenses would increase while still only vying for 5 or 6 spots at championship. For a similar travel expense (albeit a much larger registration fee) you could travel to two separate regionals, meet twice as many teams, and double your chances to qualify. For teams with the resources to go to two tournaments that still sounds like the better option. For teams without that kind of financial capital...?

When the comittee meets I hope they seriously consider travel grants to schools in your situation as an associated cost. I know they were hoping to be able to redistribute some money to teams with savings in this new model.

PS. If I didn't get to sleep in my own bed during the KC regional I doubt I'd find this proposal the least bit intriguing.

[Nemo]

Spending two weekends for only one event would be a deal breaker for our team.

Why are they looking at an in-between solution instead of figuring out how to make a district system work?