Corner Climbing, The best strategy of 2013?

[Cash4587]

I have started this thread here to put into discussion arguably what I think the best climbing strategy of 2013 was. This is also to put into question how teams solved this engineering problem by ingeniously designing their mechanisms to climb. Feel free to post your thoughts of this and concepts of how you think teams climbed the corner of the pyramid successfully.

[joelg236]

Look at all three Einstein winning teams. Pure cyclers (and 2 with ground pickups). 30 point climbing is nice, but it was not the most reliable (see 67, 1114, 254) strategy this year.

[Cash4587]

Originally Posted by joelg236

Look at all three Einstein winning teams. Pure cyclers (and 2 with ground pickups). 30 point climbing is nice, but it was not the most reliable (see 67, 1114, 254) strategy this year.

Correct, but then again the 1114 118 alliance in Galileo had the highest score out of any alliance at champs. If 1114 would have had the time to fix their climber before Galileo finals so it didn't stick, they most likely would have won champs. 1114 and 118 were cyclers as well they just had problems keeping them from moving onto Einstein.

[dcarr]

It depends how you define "best."

Most reliable? Hardest to defend? Highest scoring? Greatest crowd pleaser?

And are we talking about corner climbing as the best "overall" strategy or in comparison to other climbing methods?

[orangemoore]

I think it is the best because it is the most risky way to climb. If you slip off a rung you probably will flip over and on to the ground. It is also the least stable because you only can hold on to one rung at a time. so the body of you robot can twist.

[Bstep]

Originally Posted by orangemoore

I think it is the best because it is the most risky way to climb. If you slip off a rung you probably will flip over and on to the ground. It is also the least stable because you only can hold on to one rung at a time. so the body of you robot can twist.

Climbing on the corner gives you three points of contact. Two hooks on the corner rungs or gusset and the lower portion of the robot resting on the corner post. I saw many more robots fall from the face of the pyramid this year than from the corner. That being said, the higher number of robots falling from the face is probably because more teams tried climbing on the face than the corner.

[Chris is me]

In my opinion, if you played the 2013 game competitively and still think there was a single "best" strategy for all teams, you really don't understand the game. The game featured multiple robot archetypes that all could have won the Championship with the right execution, alliance partners, and luck. The best robot for your team depends on what you could accomplish as a team. If autonomous is your strong suit, seven disc floor pickup. Mechanical wizards run your team? Climber-cycler. Are you the Cheesy Poofs? Do it all.

I believe corner climbing had less value at the mid to upper tiers of play, but at the Einstein level of play (what we'll see at IRI) it can be absolutely essential. To put it simply - this game, at its most competitive, results in both alliances being out of discs before the thirty second mark. Any "extra" points you can get (climbing, floor pickup, autonomous advantage) as well as shot accuracy will determine the outcome of the match. A cycler with a thirty point climber is far more versatile and useful than a ten point cycler for this reason.

The difference maker at IRI is going to be either these extra points, or whichever alliance makes the fewest mistakes. It'll be fun to watch.

[Cash4587]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

In my opinion, if you played the 2013 game competitively and still think there was a single "best" strategy for all teams, you really don't understand the game. The game featured multiple robot archetypes that all could have won the Championship with the right execution, alliance partners, and luck. The best robot for your team depends on what you could accomplish as a team. If autonomous is your strong suit, seven disc floor pickup. Mechanical wizards run your team? Climber-cycler. Are you the Cheesy Poofs? Do it all.

I believe corner climbing had less value at the mid to upper tiers of play, but at the Einstein level of play (what we'll see at IRI) it can be absolutely essential. To put it simply - this game, at its most competitive, results in both alliances being out of discs before the thirty second mark. Any "extra" points you can get (climbing, floor pickup, autonomous advantage) as well as shot accuracy will determine the outcome of the match. A cycler with a thirty point climber is far more versatile and useful than a ten point cycler for this reason.

The difference maker at IRI is going to be either these extra points, or whichever alliance makes the fewest mistakes. It'll be fun to watch.

Sorry what I meant to emphasize was the best climbing strategy of 2013 not overall complete strategy. The only way that it could be considered for an elite strategy is if you had a shooter that could do 3-4 trips or a floor feed as well for auto mode. Sorry for the confusion.

[SoftwareBug2.0]

Originally Posted by Cash4587

Sorry what I meant to emphasize was the best climbing strategy of 2013 not overall complete strategy. The only way that it could be considered for an elite strategy is if you had a shooter that could do 3-4 trips or a floor feed as well for auto mode. Sorry for the confusion.

Ok, so then your question boils down to: Assume we're going to climb for 30. Do we want to do it inside or outside?

Strategically, it doesn't matter unless climbing inside for 30 is common. It wasn't this year, but were that to be the case, it would be more valuable to be a corner climber.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by SoftwareBug2.0

Ok, so then your question boils down to: Assume we're going to climb for 30. Do we want to do it inside or outside?

Strategically, it doesn't matter unless climbing inside for 30 is common. It wasn't this year, but were that to be the case, it would be more valuable to be a corner climber.

Not true. Many climbers were painstakingly slow. It you're climbing on one of the faces you're in my way as I try and shoot and traverse the field. If you're only a 30 point climber, I'd much prefer it if you climb on the corner.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Gregor

Not true. Many climbers were painstakingly slow. It you're climbing on one of the faces you're in my way as I try and shoot and traverse the field. If you're only a 30 point climber, I'd much prefer it if you climb on the corner.

True but when teams design their robots they need to remember to be flexible. During strategy sessions this year teams looked at us like we had 5 heads when told them we needed the back side of the pyramid to do our 30 point climb and a lot of teams would ask us if we could forgo our climb since it blocked their one and only shooting position. This of course didn't fly with us because we only needed that spot at 30-35 seconds which for most teams we encountered was only enough time for one more cycle. Yes face climbing does take up the most common shooting position this season, but in strategy teams need to be flexible because there is more than just shooting frisbees involved with the game. Shooting from the back of the pyramid is easy but my 15 second climber is also way easier from the back of the pyramid. I'm not going to take on one of the most complicated endgame strategies (corner climbing) so my partners can do another 9-12 point cycle in a match.

Now that we have had more practice we can do the front side which does give us another option but while climbing we will block shooting for a moment.

[s_forbes]

Originally Posted by Bstep

Climbing on the corner gives you three points of contact. Two hooks on the corner rungs or gusset and the lower portion of the robot resting on the corner post. I saw many more robots fall from the face of the pyramid this year than from the corner. That being said, the higher number of robots falling from the face is probably because more teams tried climbing on the face than the corner.

Interesting you bring that up; we were considering a corner climber but were deterred because you only have 3 points of contact that aren't in a favorable position relative to your center of mass. I was afraid it wouldn't take much to knock the robot sideways into an unstable position.

The face of the pyramid felt much safer, as it's easier to keep the robot in a stable position.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by s_forbes

The face of the pyramid felt much safer, as it's easier to keep the robot in a stable position.

The center is also way easier to line up on. Our team can go from shooting to on the first bar in 2 seconds!

[orangemoore]

Originally Posted by Bstep

Climbing on the corner gives you three points of contact. Two hooks on the corner rungs or gusset and the lower portion of the robot resting on the corner post. I saw many more robots fall from the face of the pyramid this year than from the corner. That being said, the higher number of robots falling from the face is probably because more teams tried climbing on the face than the corner.

With corner climbing you have to factor in that you have to go over the corner somehow. During that process the robots lose a lot of their stability. Also if a robot is not balanced weight wise it has a tendency to twist toward to the heavier side. I would guess that less damage would occur if a robot fell from the face of the pyramid rather than the corner because the corner climbing robot is going to catch on something which could cause it flip over.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by orangemoore

With corner climbing you have to factor in that you have to go over the corner somehow. During that process the robots lose a lot of their stability. Also if a robot is not balanced weight wise it has a tendency to twist toward to the heavier side. I would guess that less damage would occur if a robot fell from the face of the pyramid rather than the corner because the corner climbing robot is going to catch on something which could cause it flip over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...9C8KIHT#t=105s