Eligibility to be considered a team member

[Mark Sheridan]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

It's not called grade 13 anymore; it's just more grade 12. I'm not sure exactly how that's treated on the student's academic record, or when the diploma is issued (for a student who has enough credits, but doesn't have the right courses or marks for university yet).

Yeah I think my friends said they got their diploma but wanted to improve their marks and take a few other classes. So their transcript was updated. Um I think got their diploma in 2004 cause I graduated in 2005.

I graduated from a California high school. I recall getting a notice that I completed all my credits early, I could have graduated a year early but that is not a boast since practically all university bound students have enough credits to graduate a year early. You only need like 2 years of science, 2 years of math. The only thing that took 4 years was english and social studies. So if you took a English and a history class during the summer you could finish a year early. I had a friend who did graduate a year early so he could go to West Point. i guess he was impatient.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

It's not called grade 13 anymore; it's just more grade 12. I'm not sure exactly how that's treated on the student's academic record, or when the diploma is issued (for a student who has enough credits, but doesn't have the right courses or marks for university yet).

Students can take up to 4 additional credits (34 credits total) in their victory lap. They are treated exactly like any other course.

[George C]

Ontario students require 30 credits to graduate and can take as many more as they wish. As of Sep 2013 and with some exceptions, the 35th and beyond means the board will receive reduced funding from the Ministry of Education. They will be funded at the continuing education rate. Students will not have to pay to take additional courses. http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/students/faqs.html

[ErvinI]

Originally Posted by Gregor

Students can take up to 4 additional credits (34 credits total) in their victory lap. They are treated exactly like any other course.

Some universities give priority to applicants who did not repeat a course. University of Toronto does that, but most other universities don't (that I've looked at).

Diplomas are issued whenever a student has completed all courses required for an Ontario Secondary School Diploma, along with other rules. This means that a student could go into their 5th year with a diploma, or not if they take a required course in their 5th year (4U English for example). Other than that, a student taking a 5th year is treated like any other student with the same amount of credits, although they're not allowed to join any extra curricular activity without taking 4 courses that year (which includes robotics for most schools).

[CLandrum3081]

This is an interesting discussion. In MN, juniors and seniors can take college classes for college and high school credit. Several of us on the team do this, and some of the mentors and other members joke that we ought to register as mentors because we're not "pre-college age" if we do this. The catch is that we're still technically enrolled at our high school, just not for any classes (except for those of us that only do this part-time).

[bduddy]

I had a similar question once... I originally read the rule as pre-(college student), but I believe the intended reading is (pre-college) student. (Aren't parentheses useful?). The age is irrelevant, though; if a 60-year old who never graduated high school goes back, he or she could be the driver. Also, there's no minimum age, I've seen a couple teams with middle school-aged members and drivers (although get too young, and there might be safety concerns...)

[Qbot2640]

This is a very interesting discussion - Our school district has one "early college" high school, and those who attend this program fully will not graduate after four years, but rather after five...they will simultaneously receive their high school diploma and an associates degree. Our lead programmer attends this school, and we have interpreted his eligibility to end after this, his "traditional senior year." A second interpretation we have considered is that he will "age out" of student membership when he turns 19 next fall.

I really wish FIRST would make a definitive statement on this topic. It could make a significant difference to the way we, and obviously other teams, administer their program...and there is a considerable amount of "gray area" with the variety of school programs and with the teams who are unaffiliated with a specific school.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

... As a side thing because of GA law, you have to be a registered student at Walton to be on our team. Other states may well have different laws....

I am curious about this GA law you mention. What law regulates membership or participation on a FIRST team? I know that both teams I have been associated with (both in Georgia) accepted anyone, whether a student at that school or not. Are we breaking the law?

[Robo Hamsters]

While at Worlds I spoke with some people from FIRST about age limits. From what I was told the lower age is considered a "soft" limit while the upper age is a "hard" limit. I would think the only exception would be a high school student who was held back a year and thus would be 19 at graduation. I believe that is the only exception to the 18 year old hard limit for FRC.

The way I was explained "soft" lower age limit is that if you have someone who is in advanced classes, and is in 8th grade, or if someone will be turning 14 during the season, then that student would be allowed to join. At least that is what several different FIRST people have told me.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Robo Hamsters

While at Worlds I spoke with some people from FIRST about age limits. From what I was told the lower age is considered a "soft" limit while the upper age is a "hard" limit. I would think the only exception would be a high school student who was held back a year and thus would be 19 at graduation. I believe that is the only exception to the 18 year old hard limit for FRC.

Were they talking about drivers or team members? A team member can be anyone of any age. FIRST explicitly does not dictate team structure, only the ages of the drivers. A team could be all engineers with three students to form the drive team.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Robo Hamsters

While at Worlds I spoke with some people from FIRST about age limits. From what I was told the lower age is considered a "soft" limit while the upper age is a "hard" limit. I would think the only exception would be a high school student who was held back a year and thus would be 19 at graduation. I believe that is the only exception to the 18 year old hard limit for FRC.

The way I was explained "soft" lower age limit is that if you have someone who is in advanced classes, and is in 8th grade, or if someone will be turning 14 during the season, then that student would be allowed to join. At least that is what several different FIRST people have told me.

If they would like either age limit to be treated as a rule, they might want to put them in the rules... and I'm not sure that's true, as I know there are FRC teams out there with 7th-graders.

[ToddF]

I resisted the urge to jump right into this thread when it started. I'm glad I did, because others have pretty much said what I would have said about the legalities and semantics of being or not being a "student".

I'm posting now to ask the OP to consider the premise behind their original question. That being, the desire to remain a participant on your high school team after you have graduated. I would encourage you to read through the thread about transitioning from being a student to being a mentor. The general advice from those with experience is that you need to separate yourself from your former team, take at least a few years away from FIRST, and consider returning as mentor when you have your degree.

I understand your desire to continue to participate on your team. The fact that you want to is a credit to FIRST, in that the program has made STEM enjoyable for you. You are exactly what FIRST aims to produce, high school graduates who intend to pursue careers in STEM fields. But, remaining on your high school team as a "student" after you have graduated, especially in a leadership position on the team, isn't fair to the other students on the team. They have put in their time, growing into those positions. It's time to allow them to move up.

I'm going to try to phrase this in as kind a way as I can. The fact that this isn't immediately obvious to you is a sign that you aren't ready to transition to being a mentor, either. Being a student on a FIRST team is about being all you are capable of. Being a mentor is about using your industry experience and life experience to help the kids be all they can be. So, follow the good advise given on the thread I referenced and take a few years to get your degree and gain some industry and life experience. Then return to FIRST and be a fantastic mentor. But, for now, it's time to let go and move on to the next phase of your life.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by ToddF

I understand your desire to continue to participate on your team. The fact that you want to is a credit to FIRST, in that the program has made STEM enjoyable for you. You are exactly what FIRST aims to produce, high school graduates who intend to pursue careers in STEM fields. But, remaining on your high school team as a "student" after you have graduated, especially in a leadership position on the team, isn't fair to the other students on the team. They have put in their time, growing into those positions. It's time to allow them to move up.

While true (and a very good way to take this thread), I'd venture that it is legitimately dependent on the individual's reason behind the gap year. For instance, we've had students graduate at 16 and 17 (home schooled) and take gap years before college.

They chose to move on from the team for unrelated reasons, but I doubt we would have begrudged a 16-year-old another year on the team, even if she did have to be labeled a "mentor" and thus not eligible to drive. I'm not sure how I feel about that limitation, but don't see a reason that anyone this young should be effectively "kicked out" of their experience as a FIRST student simply because they can graduate early.


I can envision a few other potential reasons to continue acting as a student, though some a perhaps more controversial than a situation in which you're ending your student tenure "early".

As for driving, I'd agree with others that the legal answer is likely no, but you could check with FIRST. In terms of behaving as a student, I'd say it's something best discussed with your mentors.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Jack5885

I was wondering what the rules were about being an official member of a FRC team.
I'm currently a Senior at my high school and I'm taking a gap year next year so I won't be heading to college until after that. Am I still eligible to be a student member or would I have to be a mentor? I won't have started college, but I also will have graduated from my school already.

It seems as if I would be considered a student if I wanted to because I would still be "pre-college". Would I be able to take a leadership position on the team?

The only positions FIRST mandates go to students are the drive team. So if you do anything other than the drive team, you are automatically fine - it's up to your team, not FRC.

I believe in your case, you are still a pre-college student and could be the driver, but you'd have to ask FIRST to be sure.

[CENTURION]

I don't know that FIRST would consider you a student member, but as far as I'm aware, FIRST doesn't have any rules about team leadership. If your team is alright with you being in a leadership position, I don't see why you couldn't be.