Pacific NW District (Official)

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

The plan is for a lot of the largest/densest regions will be supporting the district system by 2015.

I was expecting PacNor to have districts by 2015, but I wouldn't be surprised if they implement it all over the summer while other parts of the continent are hesitant to take the leap until the end of the next competition season.

FIRST wanted the PNW district to start for the 2013 season but we were not confident that it could be done at the quality level desired in that time frame. A number of people from the area attended a FiM district event in the 2012 season and scouting for suitable locations for district events has been on-going since then with dozens of locations considered and visited. As I mentioned above it is highly likely that we will do the district model for the 2014 season but there are still a number of details to be worked out and is still not official.

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

As mentioned by others, FiM and MAR triple the point values of any achievements at the FiM/MAR championship events, creating a "60/40" split in points between the championship and districts. The logic behind this is that, while district performance still plays a factor in advancing to the FRC Championship event, it's mathematically impossible to advance to the FRC Championship without attending (and doing well at) the FiM/MAR Championship.

I am aware of this. I was making the point that restarting the points at the district championship was something that was just brought up recently and is not yet being debated, as Navid indicated initially.

[Madison]

I'd like some clarification from folks who are more familiar with FiM and MAR than I am regarding how teams playing in a third+ district event affect point distribution.

Currently, teams accrue points at only the first two events they attend; they may compete in a third event, but any points that would be earned seem to disappear into the ether. Since there are a finite number of points available for teams to earn per event, the presence of one or more teams that are competing at a third event has the effect of shrinking the number of points available to the other teams. If a team attending its third event seeds first, for example, and wins the event, that's 46+ points (or so) that disappear.

How does this affect teams competing in their first and second events in later weeks? It seems to me that, given that they're competing against more experienced teams, they're likely to not perform as well and will receive fewer points than did the the teams that have already completed their two 'real' district competitions. This has the effect of lessening their chance of attending the district and world championship.

Is this tinfoil hat stuff? What is the argument against taking a team's two best performances for point accrual?

[KevinRo]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

As mentioned by others, FiM and MAR triple the point values of any achievements at the FiM/MAR championship events, creating a "60/40" split in points between the championship and districts. The logic behind this is that, while district performance still plays a factor in advancing to the FRC Championship event, it's mathematically impossible to advance to the FRC Championship without attending (and doing well at) the FiM/MAR Championship.

As we start adopting the model, we are going to work with the other regions to settle some key details that really should be uniform across the country. Since PNW and New England represent the next two going into this model, I believe there is enough critical thinking and experience that FiM,MAR,NE, and PNW should be able to settle a thoughtful and well reasoned set of guidelines. What we don't want is for each district that comes into existence to form their own rules. That isn't good for the FRC eco system. There will differences of opinions on some details, but I think a mass of 4 groups will be able to come to a solution.

My overall goal is for all of us doing the District Model to adopt a common point system so that the advancement is uniform across the country. There will be talks on this over the next month. I think all of the district regions have a similar idea, so we will make this happen. There will be a few points that will have to be negotiated, but honestly I think we can get this close.

My hope is that if we share a common point system that somehow we can derive a way to share teams in the future so our FRC community can start travelling between districts and still maintain a rational way to score. This will be part of the discussion.

I am open to well reasoned and helpful suggestions on things we should consider during such discussions.

Kevin

[rsisk]

Link to EWCP podcast on districts with Jim Zondag....

http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-98466/TS-569023.mp3

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by lemiant

Well this sucks for us. Where we hade 4 regionals within driving distance this year with this new district even a second event is out of the question.

I have a great deal of faith in the PNW organizers... they have always been gracious, welcoming and inclusive. I don't think a district system will change that.

Jason

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

I have a great deal of faith in the PNW organizers... they have always been gracious, welcoming and inclusive. I don't think a district system will change that.

Jason

I know that outside teams are not allowed to compete in Michigan district events. There are a number of issues with letting them compete in a district. The least being that district winners do not qualify for Worlds and district Chairmans do not qualify for Worlds.

I think the first district system that figures out how to fairly let out-of-state teams compete will pave the way. I'd like to see cross-district competition too, but that probably won't happen for quite a while.

My first inclination was to open up the 'extra' district spots to teams outside the state and that they'd have to pay the full regional fee. But not many teams would want to pay that knowing they don't get a World qualifier. In addition, the 'extra' district spots are handed out on a last-minute basis, and most out-of-state teams would hardly want to wait till the last minute to plan all their travel.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

I have a great deal of faith in the PNW organizers... they have always been gracious, welcoming and inclusive. I don't think a district system will change that.

Jason

I believe I've read that the FiM folks did not intend to close themselves off from civilization either, but that it was a requirement levied by FIRST. Can't find it off hand, can someone confirm or tell me that I'm making stuff up?

Thanks for summing this up Navid, I accidentally slept through it.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

I believe I've read that the FiM folks did not intend to close themselves off from civilization either, but that it was a requirement levied by FIRST. Can't find it off hand, can someone confirm or tell me that I'm making stuff up?

Thanks for summing this up Navid, I accidentally slept through it.

See the think to Zondag's FAQ I posted earlier on this page.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

I believe I've read that the FiM folks did not intend to close themselves off from civilization either, but that it was a requirement levied by FIRST. Can't find it off hand, can someone confirm or tell me that I'm making stuff up?

Thanks for summing this up Navid, I accidentally slept through it.

FiNE was also unable to include teams outside the geographic borders of its region. Like it or not (I hate it), FIRST has decreed that districts must stay within FIRST's pre-defined borders, regardless of how much practical geographic sense they make.

Now, if both Ontario and the PNW go to districts, I feel quite bad for 4334.

[IKE]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

I have a great deal of faith in the PNW organizers... they have always been gracious, welcoming and inclusive. I don't think a district system will change that.

Jason

Crossing my fingers and hoping beyond hoping that this works out.

Michigan may have set the model, but MAR showed how it can be applied to a broader group in the US. I really hope that PNW can show how this can work for the world...

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by rsisk

Link to EWCP podcast on districts with Jim Zondag....

http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-98466/TS-569023.mp3

Listening to this is well worth the time.

My personal favorite is between 41:00 and 42:30, when Jim goes into high-passion mode on how to really achieve the culture-changing mission of FIRST -- through what he terms "conquest sales"; i.e., getting high-potential students who might have done any of several other activities requiring significant commitment to forgo those, and be part of the FRC team instead. I completely agree with Jim -- this is what really success in the FRC mission will look like. The FRC will be a sport, and not just any sport, but THE sport that society respects and models itself after. I did not believe that before coming to Michigan several years ago, but I do now, because I have seen it beginning to work.

Originally Posted by IKE

Michigan may have set the model, but MAR showed how it can be applied to a broader group in the US. I really hope that PNW can show how this can work for the world...

Amen.

[Kimmeh]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Michigan does a points reallocation system where they weight points in district play at a split of something like 65/35 in favor of their CMP.

Directly from the supplemental rules on the FiM site, as linked above...

To re-compute the state rankings following the State Championship, points earned at the State Championship will be multiplied by three (3) and added to the total points earned at the team’s two district events. This will allow performance at the State Championship to count for 60% and the district events to count for 40% of the total.

Edit:| Didn't see Littleboy's post. Leaving this one up because it has the percentages in it as well.

[Navid Shafa]

Originally Posted by SoftwareBug2.0

Minor nitpick: The two major arenas in Portland are the Rose Garden, and the Memorial Colesium. They're located adjacent to each other in an area called the Rose Quarter. The Memorial Colesium is the one that all the previous FIRST events have been in.

You are right, it's currently slated for the "Portland Veterans Memorial Coliseum".
They chose this venue because the costs are much lower than anywhere else, the venue is large and has been great in the past.

Originally Posted by Mr V

just brought up recently and is not yet being debated, as Navid indicated initially.

I apologize if I didn’t make it clear at the beginning. As Mr. V. noted above, none of this is set in stone yet. I just wanted this information to be available to the CD community at large and that it would hopefully foster further discussion.

Originally Posted by dtengineering

I have a great deal of faith in the PNW organizers... they have always been gracious, welcoming and inclusive. I don't think a district system will change that.
Jason

Absolutely. Kevin and Deb noted that the district system is being created to improve the quality for local teams. After every team in Washington and Oregon is taken care of, and Idaho/Montana teams have received their invitations, there is a possibility that others may be able to join. We have always been glad to have teams travel to our events, but we are growing fast. I was glad to have 4334 in Seattle and I hope we will see more of you in the future!

[OWilliamson]

So If I'm understanding this correctly only Northern Idaho teams will receive the invitations, not the Southern Idaho teams?

[Navid Shafa]

Originally Posted by OWilliamson

So If I'm understanding this correctly only Northern Idaho teams will receive the invitations, not the Southern Idaho teams?

Incorrect, but it was anticipated that the previously stated regions would be more likely to accept an invitation.

As of right now, there are only 21 teams in Idaho and Montana combined. Even with our projected growth, I would guess we'd be able to make space for all of them. The PNW is certainly not trying to leave anyone out.