9th seed decline

[Kathysmith]

You may already know this, but in Curie what happened was that the first seed invited all the other seven seeds. They didn't seem to upset when they all declined so I'm assuming they did this so that the other top seeds couldn't partner up with each other. Our team thought that it was a clever plan, but there may be unforeseen down sides to this option other than the obvious possibility that someone they were not particularly fond of might accept.

[Jeffy]

We planned on it at GKC in 2009 (seed#9) and in 2011 (seed #11). Never had to decline, but was the 8th captain seed both years.

The list of potential declines was much longer in 2009 than it was in 2011 due to our position and our strategy at elims.

I think some for events in Rebound Rumble, it would have been advantageous to be the ninth seed moved up to 8th alliance captain due to the messed up rankings the coop bridge brought. If the #1 seed was a team you could probably beat that got to their position via coop bridge, then it would be a smart choice to decline their invitation, select two solid teams in a row with the power of the 8th seed, and beat them in the quarters.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by inkling16

Has a 9th seed ever declined? Did anyone ever have the guts/motivation to do so?

Here is my story.
At the Lake Superior Regional this year, we ended the quals seeded 9th. We were reasonably assured that we would be one of the first few picks. Since there were a few good robots in the top 8, and we didn't necessarily want to be with the number 1,2, or 3 seeds, I threw out the idea of declining. I immediately got shocked silence, then horrified stares, then threats on my life (I was going to be the team representative). I was told that if I declined, I would be walking the 100+ miles back home that night.

My question is, under what circumstances (if any) would you decline a pick as a 9/10 seed? Apparently, you still have a 96% chance of being a captain as a 9th seed.

Here is the alliance selection data from every competition this year. Thanks to team 2834 for providing their championship scouting database from which I made this.

I think, as far as moves go, it's completely legitimate and something to talk about... but at the same time, the risk associated with declining while in 9th would be enough to make me accept.

If you're going to decline at any level, I think you need to do more work with your scouting and selection strategy than other teams. Think about it... most of the teams out there have a simple choice: Accept or don't play. Some teams have a harder decision to make: They have to rank all of the other teams in order to figure out who to pick (and every year at every regional you have at least one team that doesn't do this and needs about 5 minutes to make up their mind while everyone's waiting). If you're going to be declining as a 9th or 10th seed, you need to take it one step further - you need to create your own ranked list AND you need to figure out what other team's ranked lists will be, keeping in mind that everyone won't have the exact same desires in alliance partners as you will. Essentially, you need to be pretty sure you know exactly who will pick whom in order to know if you'll make it or not. It's a tough position to be in.

[Peyton Yeung]

In 2012, my team was ranked 11th at Queen City and as we formulated a pick list the question of if we would say yes to teams came up. Everyone said yes because they wanted us in the eliminations. It turned out that we moved into the 8th captain spot and swept the elimination matches. In the end whether we said yes or no to an earlier captain wouldn't have mattered but it was idea we passed around nonetheless.

[Jon K.]

Originally Posted by inkling16

Has a 9th seed ever declined? Did anyone ever have the guts/motivation to do so?

Here is my story.
At the Lake Superior Regional this year, we ended the quals seeded 9th. We were reasonably assured that we would be one of the first few picks. Since there were a few good robots in the top 8, and we didn't necessarily want to be with the number 1,2, or 3 seeds, I threw out the idea of declining. I immediately got shocked silence, then horrified stares, then threats on my life (I was going to be the team representative). I was told that if I declined, I would be walking the 100+ miles back home that night.

My question is, under what circumstances (if any) would you decline a pick as a 9/10 seed? Apparently, you still have a 96% chance of being a captain as a 9th seed.

Here is the alliance selection data from every competition this year. Thanks to team 2834 for providing their championship scouting database from which I made this.

In 2005, I was team president, and drive team coach. So I went out for alliance selections. That's when it was 1-8 1-8 draft still. We were ranked 9th at champs on our field. We decided to decline an invite from the #4 team because we felt we could field a better alliance and thought we would move up past 8th seed. #1 picked #2 and the MC didn't move me forward so it looked like we weren't in picking position when I declined. It caused such an uproar in the stands because the MC said that there must be something wrong with our robot since we weren't accepting an invite. Then when it came time for #8 (us) to pick, they couldn't figure out what to do. We ended up losing, but put up a strong battle none the less.

[who716]

i would only do it if your robot is completely dead and is impossible to fix before the next round.. this is in the sense of gracious professionalism

[EricH]

Originally Posted by who716

i would only do it if your robot is completely dead and is impossible to fix before the next round.. this is in the sense of gracious professionalism

I don't think we're talking about reasons for the 9th seed to decline other than strategy.

This is a limited scenario: You are seeded #9, you are picked, and maybe you think you can build a better alliance from the #8 slot should you get there. Do you accept, which has obvious strategic implications, or do you decline, which is a risky gamble due to relying on inter-top-8 selection?

For this scenario, which does happen from time to time, we are assuming that your robot is functional or fixable (you can do a LOT of fixing by postponing lunch until after your first QF match or taking lunch in shifts, as well as tapping alliance partners' supplies of manpower and tools and parts, so there are very few impossible fixes). Gracious Professionalism, while it has a place in how you accept or decline, should not affect your decision either direction--we're talking strategy, and as declining from any position is not forbidden, it is therefore allowed--and therefore, GP does not come into play. (Your team may see this differently than I do.)



As for whether or not I would decline, or call for a decline, that is highly dependent on situation. If I knew that I was the best robot at doing X hard-to-beat strategy, and there were a lot of decent or good complementary teams to that strategy out there (> 9), I would probably consider doing just that, particularly if there was another robot that used my strategy (though not as well, or with a weakness that I didn't have) within the top 8. On the other hand, if I've got a defensive specialist... I'm taking the offer of alliance. Defenders don't go in the first round unless they're REALLY good at what they do.