MIG welding and advice

[Walter Deitzler]

Today the robotics team walked into our machine shop to clean it, and found this:


It is a MIG welding torch.

Now, we do not know who left it there (we have our suspicions) but, if they are interested in letting us keep it, we would be VERY happy to use it. Myself and one other person on the team do have experience using a MIG welding torch, plus we could see if a sponsor would be willing to send us one of their professional welders for further instruction.

This would be the first time we had a welding torch, and the question arises if this room would be alright for welding.

We could get access to a table that we need for it, and we would probably either open a window, or, if needed, install a vent for the excess gases.

Next, in order to weld aluminum, the manual says we need 100% Argon gas. Where can we get this, and how expensive is it?

Thank you for the help. More pictures can be found on the blog here: http://robolions3397.blogspot.com/

[jwallace15]

I'd suggest getting some sort of booth setup with some kind of curtain as a door. The arc from an arc welder (such as MIG and TIG) is as bright as the sun, and can cause eye damage easily. If you cannot get a booth, make sure there is some sort of see-through welding curtain. That way you can safely see what is going on inside without being blinded. The arc can also cause sunburns to people nearby it. We have a heavy leather coat that our welders wear when they tig weld for that reason. (we don't MIG weld our aluminum)

(you can see the curtain we use in the pictures I attached, and you can sort of see the booths we have in the background. Sorry for the poor image quality, I had my friend record a video of me TIG welding with my phone, not the best image quality)

As for gas, yes. It does have to be 100% Argon. That can be bought at different welding supply stores. I'm not sure how gas refills go for us because we haven't needed to refill it during my time on our team, but the closest place I know is an Airgas store.

Praxair seems to be a really credible place to buy it too.

http://www.praxairdirect.com/Special...ons/Argon.html

I'm not sure on the price. I found on a website it is $.50 per 100 grams.

Hope this helps!

[DonRotolo]

If welding steel is like stitches, welding aluminum is like brain surgery. It is challenging, and you absolutely must have competent instruction.

You cannot weld indoors without full and complete vetilation. "open a window" will not cut it. The room also needs to be essentially fireproof - sheetrock is not fireproof.

If you ever weld steel with that welder, it is useless for aluminum. If you dedicate it to 100% aluminum, and use the right supplies, then MIG welding (really, GMAW*) will work well for aluminum.

100% argon is not much different in cost from any welding gas. You will find that it is not a great expense, even if you rent the tank (common) and the regulator (usually you buy one), the cost of the gas is comparable to a nice dinner for four.

So, your next steps:
1. Can you really keep it?
2. Get someone who is an expert aluminum welder (not a steel guy who has done some aluminum. Trust me here) and have them help you...
3....find a good aluminum welding wire, and...
4. A source of gas, and....
5..Invest in a set of "aluminum only" tools (your welder will explain)
6. And personal protective equipment (mask, gloves, apron, etc)
7. Then find a location approved by the fire marshal (in most states you require a fire dept. permit to do indoor welding)
8. and practice, practice, practice. Then go and practice more. After 100+ feet of welding bead, you'll be passable.

This is NOT a lot of money, but step 2 for advice and instruction is critical...

Don

*Gas Metal Arc Welding
**Disclaimer: I know a lot about aluminum welding, maybe too much, but my eye-hand coordination stinks.

[Justin Shelley]

In order to weld Aluminum with a MIG you have to have a TIG gun. As far as getting gas I would contact a welding gas supplier near you and lease the tanks, OzarkGas is who I would contact first. They are extremely reasonable and highly qualified.

[MrBasse]

Originally Posted by Justin Shelley

In order to weld Aluminum with a MIG you have to have a TIG gun. As far as getting gas I would contact a welding gas supplier near you and lease the tanks, OzarkGas is who I would contact first. They are extremely reasonable and highly qualified.

Originally Posted by Justin Shelley

It's because you have to have a completely different setup to weld aluminum then you do steel. I wouldn't say it makes it completely useless but it's expensive to keep both setups and time consuming to switch back and forth.

Be sure that you understand welding processes before you give out too much information. MIG and TIG are abbreviations for the same process (GMAW), but differ greatly in the fact that the machine, electrode, filler material delivery, cost, much more are dissimilar.

You can MIG weld aluminum, but as mentioned the contamination is hard to avoid if used for other materials. Also the quality of weld achieved from a MIG welder is generally not to the same level as one can get with a pedal operated TIG set-up. It should still be plenty fine for FRC uses, but don't expect beautiful flowing material spec rated aluminum welds out of the machine that the OP has.

For gas, check some medical supply shops and a quick google search for your area based on city alone brought up a handful of welding supply shops. Looks like you guys are in the Airgas supply area, as well as many others. Between Airgas, Delta, and Rod's you have your choice of 3-4 shops within ten minutes of the city listed in your location.

The best advice is to get some training from someone who knows what they are doing and then run through a whole spool of wire practicing. But, practice on the same material you will be using during the season. If you are buying a particular type of aluminum tubing, get a chunk of it. Buy a lot of usable drops from your supplier and start burning holes in those until you can get a reliable bead built up. Then start connecting pieces together and see what it takes to break them apart. Some of the most fun we had in welding classes was the "toss test." Just find some concrete and chuck a test weld in the air ten or fifteen feet. If it survives the landing then move on to the real part to be welded.

And have fun, welding is one of those addicting hobbies you never seem to stop doing once you start.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by MrBasse

... before you give out too much information. MIG and TIG are abbreviations for the same process (GMAW),

In practice MIG & TIG are very different. In MIG your electrode becomes the filler & is consumed. In TIG your tungsten electrode is not consumed & should never touch the weld puddle. While you can buy machines that do both the setups are very different.

[MrBasse]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

In practice MIG & TIG are very different. In MIG your electrode becomes the filler & is consumed. In TIG your tungsten electrode is not consumed & should never touch the weld puddle. While you can buy machines that do both the setups are very different.

Exactly right, but both MIG and TIG fall in the category of Gas Metal Arc Welding (GMAW) by using a shielding gas (Argon, Carbon Dioxide, etc.) rather than Shielded Metal Arc Welding (SMAW) using a flux coated filler material. What you said is exactly what I wanted the poster to look up and learn on his own.

[FrankJ]

Not to be confused with a flux core wire welder which looks a lot like a MIG.

[MrBasse]

This welding stuff sure does get confusing... We should all just switch to glue

[FrankJ]

Thermo Setting? Synthetic monomer? Synthetic polymer? horse glue? Or my personal favorite Gorilla glue?

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

Thermo Setting? Synthetic monomer? Synthetic polymer? horse glue? Or my personal favorite Gorilla glue?

Friction stir welding. That's what I want to try. I have my cordless drill....

Gorilla glue? Why in the world would you want to glue gorillas together?? (I can see why you'd want to glue horses together though - increased horsepower, of course).

[FrankJ]

Picture a gorilla on top of a pyramid swatting Frisbees out of the sky while holding one of the Refs. Then you will understand the need for the glue.

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

Friction stir welding. That's what I want to try. I have my cordless drill....

Handheld friction stir welder... Yeahbuddy!

SpaceX does friction stir welding to make their rocket bodies, it's really a extremely cool process. Worth a google for all those looking at this thread.

On a side note, I've heard the reason that we beat the Russians to the moon was because we had better welders. Ours could figure out how to weld tanks which were good enough to hold liquid hydrogen, whereas the Russians could only make kerosene tanks. We ended up with the slightly smaller and more reliable Saturn V for our moonshot, and they ended up with that massive kerosene powered rocket that looked like a Christmas tree--which turned out to be impossible to control in the sky.

[Walter Deitzler]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

If welding steel is like stitches, welding aluminum is like brain surgery. It is challenging, and you absolutely must have competent instruction.

You cannot weld indoors without full and complete vetilation. "open a window" will not cut it. The room also needs to be essentially fireproof - sheetrock is not fireproof.

If you ever weld steel with that welder, it is useless for aluminum. If you dedicate it to 100% aluminum, and use the right supplies, then MIG welding (really, GMAW*) will work well for aluminum.

100% argon is not much different in cost from any welding gas. You will find that it is not a great expense, even if you rent the tank (common) and the regulator (usually you buy one), the cost of the gas is comparable to a nice dinner for four.

So, your next steps:
1. Can you really keep it?
2. Get someone who is an expert aluminum welder (not a steel guy who has done some aluminum. Trust me here) and have them help you...
3....find a good aluminum welding wire, and...
4. A source of gas, and....
5..Invest in a set of "aluminum only" tools (your welder will explain)
6. And personal protective equipment (mask, gloves, apron, etc)
7. Then find a location approved by the fire marshal (in most states you require a fire dept. permit to do indoor welding)
8. and practice, practice, practice. Then go and practice more. After 100+ feet of welding bead, you'll be passable.

This is NOT a lot of money, but step 2 for advice and instruction is critical...

Don

*Gas Metal Arc Welding
**Disclaimer: I know a lot about aluminum welding, maybe too much, but my eye-hand coordination stinks.

1. I think we can keep it, mostly due to the fact that the only keys to the room that was in are in possession of our captains, our coach, and our teacher sponsor (who expressed interest in giving us a MIG welder).

2. We can do this. The guy who welded our aluminum robot last season ( http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...light=Serenity) was a professor at the local Tech College, and is very good at his job. He can teach us.

3. What is an example of good aluminum welding wire?

4. We should be able to find some thanks to Justin

5. I will ask him tomorrow

6. We can get those

7. We might have an area in our school's wood shop (away from all of the wood) that would allow us to have ventilation and a curtain, and be fire-safe, we would check with this to be certain (to make sure it is no going to mix with the wood).

8. Sounds like a plan.

Thank you so much!

[Justin Shelley]

OzarkGas will be able to get you anything you need for welding; gas, wire, guns, etc.. And hope you have a great experience with your welder!!