Is OSX (mac) FRC Friendly?

[mkaa00x]

Okay so hey guys! I'm 1 of the 2 programmers on team 4627 and my previous team used to be 4719. anyways I've basically carried their disks for some time and kind of forgotten to give it back over the summer. (I'm giving them back tomorrow). So anyways both of this team's programmers use a Mac. Which means that it runs OSX (and is able to run windows later on). I was wondering if it's possible to program and upload and control etc the robot in Java on a Mac. Which means I'd need Labview control and DriverStation and wireless utility and the rest etc. I know I can get NetBeans although the disk I have for Labview says Windows on it. We never got any other CD for Macs so, is there a mac version? Is FRC even Mac friendly? If it is FRC Friendly, where to get the drivers and FRC tools?

[wlmeng11]

For C++, there's UCPP, but I don't know for Java.
Someone has written a Driver Station replacement in node.js, and someone else wrote a Netconsole replacement in node as well.
However, the official FIRST tools are Windows only.

[techhelpbb]

Get a Windows license and use VMWare Fusion, Parallels or just Boot Camp (the last being free except for Windows)?
This addresses your problem but it means acquiring Windows for those systems.
That'll set you back some money unless someone can donate a legit copy.

Anyone try to use this stuff under Wine on OSX?
If so which version of OSX?
How did you get Wine (there are several distributions packaged for OSX)?

[theawesome1730]

There is no native support for LabView on Mac OS X yet. You can use a Mac running Windows 7 (or 8 although I wouldn't recommend it yet) through BootCamp or Parallels/VMWare (I would not trust a VM in competition). Macs are very elegant, durable machines and will work great as driver station computers when in BootCamp.

Edit: My personal Mac was often used as an emergency back up programming laptop at regionals. Thankfully I never needed to use it, but through BootCamp I could do whatever needed to be done

[Greg McKaskle]

Actually LabVIEW was born on the mac, first released in 1986, and was mac only until the team and I released a port to Win31 in 1992. While we were at it, we also ported to unix, specifically Solaris. Over the years, we added HPUX, Concurrent, linux. Internally, we had LV running on WinNT on Alpha, and a portion running on BeOs. But the market ultimately decides what stays as a product.

Today, LabVIEW runs on mac, win, and linux desktop OSes. Only Windows has full RT support.

As for BootCamp and VMs. I run them all day long to develop LV for FRC and see teams run them at competition. The Kinect is about the only thing I've ever seen that won't work on the VM. And it crashes Bootcamp pretty often as well.

Greg McKaskle

[Bpk9p4]

Does anyone know if the drives station windows 7 image can be used to put windows on a mac?

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Greg McKaskle

Actually LabVIEW was born on the mac, first released in 1986, and was mac only until the team and I released a port to Win31 in 1992. While we were at it, we also ported to unix, specifically Solaris. Over the years, we added HPUX, Concurrent, linux. Internally, we had LV running on WinNT on Alpha, and a portion running on BeOs. But the market ultimately decides what stays as a product.

Well Solaris 11.1 is still around I just shoved it in a SPARC emulator the other day and I've got a few hundred of the UltraSPARC2 and UltraSPARC3 floating around.

BeOS it's still out there.

You ported it to NT on Alpha CPU and HPUX but not OpenVMS?
That makes my Alphas unhappy

I am guessing this original Apple Mac support was Classic OS as NeXT and NeXTStep is not listed. Big parts of that are in OSX these days. Course the Carbon API and Classic interfaces are sort of end of life since 10.8.

Since you worked on it ever tried this in Wine?

Originally Posted by Bpk9p4

Thanks for the advice about the classmate.

I am currently trying to get some free version of windows for the team through techsoup.org (they work with Microsoft to release software to non-profit organizations)

if this does not work out does anyone know any other methods of getting windows licences?

School maybe offer some help if you put it in a VM and release the bundle at the end of your time as a student?
This way the school can take all your work in a bundle anyway.

Also the cheapest product offering that will get you 3 license for Windows 7 Home Premium is this:
http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Wind.../dp/B002MV2MG0
Be aware this is an upgrade so technically you should have some old non-OEM OS floating around to qualify.

Also be aware that some people will tell you to use the OEM license of Windows that is a license violation.
Technically Microsoft has a virtual machine licensing program that costs usually about $100 a year (yes recurring) but it gives you basically 4 licenses per user and all the updates (so it sounds bad but it's not really all that bad cost wise).
Also you can run anything back to MS-DOS under that license.
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windo...ation/vdi.aspx
The trick with this is you need to pad your volume license with some cheap SKU to qualify because you won't buy enough volume otherwise (just your circumstances, ask a reputable reseller for a hand).

I have a TechNet license I just bought before the option to buy those closed at the end of August (about $400).
I also have a personal MSDN subscription (this is expensive).
$400 sounds like a lot? Not even close. It gives you access to dozens of operating systems and expensive products.
However my MSDN license includes Microsoft Visual Studio Professional which itself is more valuable than TechNet.
If I have to fork over $1,000+ plus I'd like to test without having to buy things everyday.

[Nirvash]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

Also be aware that some people will tell you to use the OEM license of Windows that is a license violation.

Easy solution would just be to use boot camp (or some other dual booting configuration) in that case to avoid Microsoft's overly controlling and confusing ELUAs on their software, it isn't too hard to reboot into a different OS.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Nirvash

Easy solution would just be to use boot camp (or some other dual booting configuration) in that case to avoid Microsoft's overly controlling and confusing ELUAs on their software, it isn't too hard to reboot into a different OS.

I hate to say this but this is not a solution or true.

If you are not manufacturing (or at least assembling) the computer you can not be an OEM:
Original Equipment Manufacturer

Hence unless you are Apple you are not the OEM of a MacBook.
You bought the MacBook COTS.

Do people break this rule all the time? Yes.
Should anyone make the mistake of suggesting it?
Not unless they Captain the Black Pearl and talk to Davy Jones.

Believe it or not: even a retail license of Windows 7 or 8 puts you on strange ground if you virtualize it.
Though you can install legally a retail license of Windows 7 or 8 in Boot Camp (which is basically a boot manager and drivers).

As the end user you are also not allowed to virtualize Mac OSX unless you operate a specific set of server licensing.
Yes people hack it all the time. It does not comply with the agreement.

Windows XP lacked clauses that prevent the end user from virtualizing it.
So basically a virtual machine was no different from physical hardware.
Course Windows XP is increasingly useless for FIRST applications.

Microsoft's licensing model is an ever changing maze. If in doubt call them.

[johnl]

Maybe you could try C++, I think it has UCPP..

[cgmv123]

Originally Posted by Bpk9p4

Does anyone know if the drives station windows 7 image can be used to put windows on a mac?

No, I wouldn't try it.

1. The images are designed for the Classmate. All the included drivers are specific to the Classmate.

2. FIRST's licensing agreement with Microsoft is tied to the Classmate. It doesn't cover any other devices.

[Bpk9p4]

Thanks for the advice about the classmate.

I am currently trying to get some free version of windows for the team through techsoup.org (they work with Microsoft to release software to non-profit organizations)

if this does not work out does anyone know any other methods of getting windows licences?

[Domenic Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by mkaa00x

...So anyways both of this team's programmers use a Mac... I was wondering if it's possible to program and upload and control etc the robot in Java on a Mac. Which means I'd need Labview control and DriverStation and wireless utility and the rest etc. I know I can get NetBeans although the disk I have for Labview says Windows on it. We never got any other CD for Macs so, is there a mac version? Is FRC even Mac friendly? If it is FRC Friendly, where to get the drivers and FRC tools?

You can indeed run NetBeans on OS X for Java development (setup instructions can be found on the documentation site). This allows you to write and deploy code to the robot from OS X. SmartDashboard, being Java based, is also available. However, the Driver Station and (most of) the other FIRST utilities are Windows only at this point. When it comes time to image the cRIO or drive the robot, you are going to need a copy of Windows (unless you try something like Wine). Your best bet is probably to use Windows 7 under Boot Camp.