FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by nicholsjj

Wait, I was so caught up in the 3D printing part of the blog that I missed the most important part of it. We get 150! credits for round 1 of first choice and 450! for round two. That will either mean that some parts are going to have to be way upped in value or they will fly off the shelves faster than the towels at a Walmart on Thanksgiving!

This is critical to the decision. After kickoff, once we know the game, and game-specific materials are available for 'free' on FIRSTChoice, those of us who have opted for, and received, the 3-D printer will have given up the privilege of obtaining these resources through FIRSTChoice.
So the decision becomes this: Do we want to buy a 3-D printer, after we have researched it, know exactly what we're getting, and can select any necessary upgrades with our own money? Or get one that may or may not be precisely what is perfect for our team, for 'free'? And in doing so, making us pay for any game-specific objects in January that other teams are receiving for 'free'.
Certainly makes the cheese more binding.
Also, I wouldn't automatically assume the kit chassis is c-channel-based. I have no direct evidence to the contrary, but it may be a dangerous assumption to make.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Christopher149

It's not explicit, but do those printers require the team be US-based? Not that it affects me, but we have lots of Canadian, Israeli, Mexican, etc friends.

I am not an authority but all NASA funding is tied to US based teams, so I would think it's likely there's a similar restriction for this (though the fact that they didn't mention it seems like a glaring omission, so maybe it won't be a problem).

[Michael Hill]

They could probably play games and say "Well, these international teams are getting funded by money from Makerbot/etc. while these American teams are getting funded by NASA/Government money."

In the end, it would put a cap on how many non-US teams get funding.

Sounds kinda sketchy, but it sounds legal to me (and, of course, that's all that matters, right?)

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Cory

I am not an authority but all NASA funding is tied to US based teams, so I would think it's likely there's a similar restriction for this (though the fact that they didn't mention it seems like a glaring omission, so maybe it won't be a problem).

The FC Rules specifically describe the international shipping options for 3D printers, so this is open to internatonal teams and US teams.

[MagiChau]

Originally Posted by orangemoore

How exactly does FIRST Choice Work? I am assuming that FIRST Choice will be replenished with new items after the first round. Is this true?

In years past there has been no restocking. When something is gone its gone until next year.

[sanddrag]

Gambling in FIRST! Awesome!

[mman1506]

I think we might go with the 3D printer just so are mentor doesn't have to deal with the stress of FIRST choice.

[MysterE]

Now I just have to hope my Donor's Choose project gets funded before hand. That would make this whole decision easier

[Bald & Bearded]

Well depending on the specific printers and kits offered it may or may not be a good deal.

A top quality kit is under the $600 in credits it would cost you.

Couple of thoughts:

1. If it is a kit verify when they will get delivered. Most kits only require a few hours to assemble but can require quite a bit of time to calibrate. It does not look like you will get them before the build season starts. You will have failed prints and it can take some time to learn how to get the best quality.

2. Make sure you get a printer that can print ABS. PLA will be too brittle for any major robotic items.

3. Maximize the build area and make sure you get a heated bed.

4. Safety, Safety, Safety - 3d printers use a lot of heat (ABS prints at 210-225 centagrade) you should never leave them printing unattended. This can be a problem. Some large prints can take hours. I had one part of a robotic hand that took 6+ hours. Also, ABS fumes are not the best for you - make sure you use in a well ventilated area. Also, if you use ABS you are likely to want to use acetone to finish parts, glue parts, or as a bed adhesive. It is flammable and fumes are bad. Skin contact should be avoided. Wear gloves (just make sure the Acetone does not dissolve the gloves), well ventilated area, no flames.

5. Spend a little more on better filament. While the cheap stuff is $5-$8 a roll less you will waste a lot of time on curled prints and jams.

For those in the Northern Virginia area I will be doing a session on 3d printing on Dec 7th at the DC FRC workshop. See http://dc-first.org/ for information and https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/8PTYNW3 to register.

Also, if you want to get a jump on the rush the US STEM foundation in cooperation with Team 1885 will be doing a 3D printer camp Dec 16-20 in Mclean, Va. The cost is $750 and includes a Prusa I3 printer and spool of filament. We make sure you walk out with a working 3D printer. See the attached for more details and you can register at:
https://www.fundaround.com/ustem/201...camp-dec-2013/

[BigBlue]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

exactly. I'm excited about a free 3d printer as much as the next guy, but if I look back on it, there was very little, if anything, we could've used a 3d printer for on our robot last year. It will definitely be useful for small profile parts, but I may be more inclined to get a couple of batteries and some pneumatics equipment over a lottery ticket for a 3d printer (and while we do get credits back, all of the items we want could be gone by then).

I see your point, and materials is typically the inhibiting factor with the 3-D printing. Although I have had a different expereince with the technology. I have been a part of team 3824 since it's creation and we have had the privilege of utilizing 3-D printing for 3, coming on 4 years now. We have partnered with Oak Ridge National Laboratory and UT Battelle to open up a government facility, the Manufacturing Demonstration Facility, to ourselves and 9 other area teams. With this partnership all fo the teams involved have had extensive exposure to additive manufacturing. Our team had the first fully printed robot 2 years ago and last year had a printed robot that incorporated carbon fiber.

That being so we have used 3-D printing to a large extent and use it in many practical ways such as: Brackets for pulleys and tensioners and housing/ mounting brackets for electronics (lights, cameras, battery boxes,sensors, etc.) We also have used 3-D printing in higher stress areas.

The main thing to remember is that with 3-D printing you can almost make anything you can design and test it within the day.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by BigBlue

I see your point, and materials is typically the inhibiting factor with the 3-D printing. Although I have had a different expereince with the technology. I have been a part of team 3824 since it's creation and we have had the privilege of utilizing 3-D printing for 3, coming on 4 years now. We have partnered with Oak Ridge National Laboratory and UT Battelle to open up a government facility, the Manufacturing Demonstration Facility, to ourselves and 9 other area teams. With this partnership all fo the teams involved have had extensive exposure to additive manufacturing. Our team had the first fully printed robot 2 years ago and last year had a printed robot that incorporated carbon fiber.

That being so we have used 3-D printing to a large extent and use it in many practical ways such as: Brackets for pulleys and tensioners and housing/ mounting brackets for electronics (lights, cameras, battery boxes,sensors, etc.) We also have used 3-D printing in higher stress areas.

The main thing to remember is that with 3-D printing you can almost make anything you can design and test it within the day.

I think it's reasonable to point out the level of performance and quality you are getting out of your parts is NOT what teams will be able to replicated with the printers available on FC.

[LittleRed]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

I think it's reasonable to point out the level of performance and quality you are getting out of your parts is NOT what teams will be able to replicated with the printers available on FC.

Very true... Our team is lucky to get to use Ultem. Though we also have a printer made by the same company at our school that has very high quality prints made out of ABS.

I am also interning at ORNL along with two other Team 3824 members. We have been designing FIRST specific parts in CAD that will end up online for FIRST teams to use. On a day to day basis, we use all three of the printers available through FIRST choice, and they are all able to handle the parts we have been designing. Our team, along with ORNL, has helped get the 3D printers into FIRST Choice, so it would be a safe bet to say we are all for other teams getting a printer

As for the performance of the parts I understand you may not want an important bracket made out of ABS or PLA supporting 30+ pounds on a competition robot, it is great to be able to print a bracket in a number of hours so a team can continue progressing its design.

[BigBlue]

Originally Posted by LittleRed

Very true... Our team is lucky to get to use Ultem. Though we also have a printer made by the same company at our school that has very high quality prints made out of ABS.

I am also interning at ORNL along with two other Team 3824 members. We have been designing FIRST specific parts in CAD that will end up online for FIRST teams to use. On a day to day basis, we use all three of the printers available through FIRST choice, and they are all able to handle the parts we have been designing. Just experiment, don't be afraid to try new things.

As for the performance of the parts I understand you may not want an important bracket made out of ABS or PLA supporting 30+ pounds on a competition robot, it is great to be able to print a bracket in a number of hours so a team can continue progressing its design.

Also don't forget that materials are constantly being expermented with and innovated on the printers available on FIRST Choice. There's ALOT of new materials coming that can be printed on these printers. Also, I know of some experimentation with rubber materials and those could be useful in robotics with shock absorbtion. Students who have access to this technology will be able to innovate and use these materials in ways no one has ever thought of before. There are some service bureaus that are donating parts to FIRST teams this year that have this capability. That is, in part, the reasoning behind why Oak Ridge National Laboratory mentors on FIRST team 3824 have been pushing for the printers in FIRST Choice. They want to see what young, educated, and almost free minds can come up with using this technology!

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by LittleRed

Very true... Our team is lucky to get to use Ultem. Though we also have a printer made by the same company at our school that has very high quality prints made out of ABS.

I think what Adam was getting at had little to do with the fact that the machine was printing in Ultem, but the fact that a machine that can print Ultem is a completely different beast than what's available in First Choice.

Don't get me wrong, the FIRST Choice Printers are more than capable of handling a lot of 'odd work' for most (if not all) FRC teams with very little expertise. It's reasonable to expect all of those printers to be able to handle Things like brackets, mounts, interfaces, etc - but implying that they'd be able to handle high stress or high precision components is a bit of a dangerous proposition.

A Fortus for example, whether is be running ABS, or Ultem 9085 is a $100,000 Machine that you don't just 'plug' into a wall outlet. Those machines are intended to be '3D production' Machines rather than a Rapid Prototyping Machine, or a '3D Printer'. Comparing the parts that come out of a Fortus, or even a Dimension Machine are misleading to say the least.

In any case, I don't mean to belittle the efforts of you and your team in getting more 3D printers out to as many teams as possible, it's really awesome. I'm just a bit concerned at some of the misinformation being thrown about regarding what each machine is actually capable of and would hate to see teams losing a bunch of time because they gambled on something they didn't fully understand.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by thefro526

In any case, I don't mean to belittle the efforts of you and your team in getting more 3D printers out to as many teams as possible, it's really awesome. I'm just a bit concerned at some of the misinformation being thrown about regarding what each machine is actually capable of and would hate to see teams losing a bunch of time because they gambled on something they didn't fully understand.

And I'm not criticizing either (both 3824 and the FC machines), just clarifying that a CNC sherline will never be a Haas, in the same way that a makerbot will never be the machines 3824 has.