Internet at Competitions

[khanh111]

My team has traditionally used a web application for our scouting application which has allowed our scouting head in the pits to access data from the stands.

However, we have enormous problems with internet access each year that we attempt to negate through use of various offline technologies.

We use 6 tablets, each with 4G internet access from AT&T in Portland (and Champs). However, at Portland, and especially Champs, the internet access will not work due to network congestion.

For other teams who use web apps, how do you access the internet?

Thanks!

[Michael Hill]

We use a similar setup (4G tablets), but we've also got a 4G modem that has a bit better antenna if we really need it that we can wire into our tablets. Our scouting software has the ability to temporarily cache the data if it can't upload it to the database. It holds the data until a connection is established, then dumps it all at once.

[yash101]

I think that it would be wise to carry something like a 1W 4G antenna (if you can even get one). You'll be able to communicate with a tower possibly 80 to 100 miles away! Connect that into a switch and that can offer ethernet connectivity. That's where Windows tablets come in use! They have ethernet ports!

Otherwise, since you are running a webpage-based scouting app, just run the server at the competition! That is the reason why the scouting app I'm working on will be a fail. Even though I am heavily using WebCache to store the page, an internet connection will be required. Since you live in the West coast, like me, you might want to use Verizon or Sprint or ATnT. WiMax will give a 40 mile range! Even better, have a WiFi pack running a 16 Watt antenna (you'd have to build this yourself!) with you, and one copying your hotel's wifi! You'll get WiFi from anywhere in the city!

[arbym]

We actually queue the transactions which is different than caching the web page. We estimated last year that we could run several hours without a 4g signal. At worse case we could walk out to a hallway or even outside to flush the queue.

[yash101]

I think that it is time that FRC makes available a limited-use wireless network, only available to certain people! That would make internet access possible without causing too many robot network communication troubles!

Otherwise, why doesn't FRC special-order the radios to work on a special frequency? Maybe even a channel not used very often.

I have two routers at home, sitting next to each other. They used to fight over the signals, causing them to get very hot and keep on crashing. I changed the channel of one of the routers and now I get no problems!

[EricWilliams]

Originally Posted by yash101

Otherwise, why doesn't FRC special-order the radios to work on a special frequency?

And everything old is new again: http://team358.org/files/electrical/...Manual2007.pdf

FIRST moved away from custom radios to make it easier to utilize COTS parts/systems during competitions. Things might swing the other way soon enough.

[DonRotolo]

Why in the world would you need Internet access for scouting? What is it you need from outside the venue?

[yash101]

Originally Posted by EricWilliams

And everything old is new again: http://team358.org/files/electrical/...Manual2007.pdf

FIRST moved away from custom radios to make it easier to utilize COTS parts/systems during competitions. Things might swing the other way soon enough.

I mean a small difference, just in the antenna, like 2.6GHz instead of 2.4!

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

Why in the world would you need Internet access for scouting? What is it you need from outside the venue?

I want to design a scouting application that will allow every team to view the same results and use the same tools. The server will be at home to make sure everyone around the world can connect to it!

[Brandon Ha]

I am speaking from FiM's side, which is WiFi is bad. Do NOT use it at competitions. Many things can and will go wrong, not for the users but the field people. They will get angry at you.

[yash101]

Originally Posted by Brandon Ha

I am speaking from FiM's side, which is WiFi is bad. Do NOT use it at competitions. Many things can and will go wrong, not for the users but the field people. They will get angry at you.

First of all, do you mean FMS (Field Management System)? Also, you say, don't use WiFi in the competitions, but you don't really explain why. Also, yes, they will get angry at you, but it isn't a bad thing, like how you are making it sound. That is to just keep the fields working properly. WiFi is a thing that is quite useful in competitions because it will network devices together, allowing them to communicate. That is the reason why you use Bluetooth in competitions!
Bluetooth should be good as long as you aren't torenting a 16GB file (you'll get angry by the 3MBps max speed)!

[Abhishek R]

Originally Posted by yash101

First of all, do you mean FMS (Field Management System)?

FiM = FIRST in Michigan. Though I'm not sure which one he meant, now that you bring it up, but I'm fairly certain he meant FiM being from a Michigan team.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by yash101

First of all, do you mean FMS (Field Management System)? Also, you say, don't use WiFi in the competitions, but you don't really explain why. Also, yes, they will get angry at you, but it isn't a bad thing, like how you are making it sound. That is to just keep the fields working properly. WiFi is a thing that is quite useful in competitions because it will network devices together, allowing them to communicate.

Interference. That's why no WiFi. Field working properly is HUGE! You weren't around in 2012, I don't think--get your hands on a copy of the Einstein Report from that year, and see just what can go wrong if either the field or the robots aren't working properly.



FYI, all: From the 2014 Administrative Manual, Section 4.15, 3rd bullet:

Do not arrange for Internet access or phone lines on the site or attempt to connect to the Internet.

I'm guessing this replaces the WiFi restriction from 2013 and prior years.

[Ankit S.]

Originally Posted by EricH

FYI, all: From the 2014 Administrative Manual, Section 4.15, 3rd bullet:

Do not arrange for Internet access or phone lines on the site or attempt to connect to the Internet.

I'm guessing this replaces the WiFi restriction from 2013 and prior years.

So if I am understanding this correctly, we cant use the Internet at all during competition anymore? Even over 3G/4G?

[DELurker]

Originally Posted by EricH

FYI, all: From the 2014 Administrative Manual, Section 4.15, 3rd bullet:

I'm guessing this replaces the WiFi restriction from 2013 and prior years.

Actually, I think they are trying to keep people from getting temporary land lines or internet lines run for them for the event because at many venues these services are available to the events they host at additional significant cost. They are also trying to discourage people from jumping onto local existing wireless networks and swamping them away from people who have a legitimate use for them (such as the router owners).

The WiFi restriction will most likely be in the competition manual again.

EDIT: Yes, what Ankit S said two minutes ago ...

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by yash101

Also, you say, don't use WiFi in the competitions, but you don't really explain why. Also, yes, they will get angry at you, but it isn't a bad thing, like how you are making it sound. That is to just keep the fields working properly

Here's why - FIRST has asked teams nicely NOT to use wifi at events as it interferes with the Field. Yes, ticking off the FTA is a bad thing. They are already stressed enough without your punk team deciding the rules don't apply to them for WHATEVER reason you are using to justify it.

Frankly, I'm appalled that you're so easily discussing interfering with the field. But I'm more annoyed at how easily you discount the impact your actions will have on the volunteers who will face the repercussions. Because when the field doesn't work nobody is going to come to you, they'll go to the FTA and then the FTA will have to spend an hour of their time hunting down your stupid wifi network while listening to people blame them/NI/Cisco.