The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

[shades23]

As of right now the rules state that therenis no "grabbing, grasping etc. With field elements" so I think that it is very wishful thinking that the rules will change within the six weeks ...that seems to be a huge change for a mid season rule change. But that is just me.. also historically looking back when gas FIRST ever changed the game that much.. usually they are small changes like last year they said there is no throwing white frisbees.. but all in all I suppose it is quite suspicious that there is a truss that can hold ~1800 pounds ...why woud it hold 1800 lbs. When 6 robots weigh about 900 lbs ..

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by shades23

As of right now the rules state that therenis no "grabbing, grasping etc. With field elements" so I think that it is very wishful thinking that the rules will change within the six weeks ...that seems to be a huge change for a mid season rule change. But that is just me.. also historically looking back when gas FIRST ever changed the game that much.. usually they are small changes like last year they said there is no throwing white frisbees.. but all in all I suppose it is quite suspicious that there is a truss that can hold ~1800 pounds ...why woud it hold 1800 lbs. When 6 robots weigh about 900 lbs ..

There is a BIG difference between static load bearing capacity and dynamic load bearing capacity. Typically you should double or triple the load bearing capacity for a dynamic load. FIRST Robots? Better believe they're a dynamic load.

[acrease77]

Originally Posted by UnTrustedTruss

Aerial Assist is one of the most technically boring challenges we have had so far, and with the smooth gradient of difficulty each year as the league matures. This simply does not make sense, it is clear there is something missing.
...
No major shifts in origination, challenge, or league size. It is weird that this would be mentioned if there was not something further to back this up.
...
However, this is not some weak little rope
...

I believe that there is a pretty significant challenge, that would get you approximately the same amount of points as an end game would, that everyone is missing.

First off, it has been mentioned that the truss can support a lot of weight and they could have just used a rope. A rope or even a 30 foot long metal bar would end up sagging and robots would get caught in it, nevermind that it needs to support cycle lights and posts. It seems pretty easy to put together and transport given any situation and I feel it is a guarantee that a robot will not accidentally break the truss; last year some teams had some issues when the pyramid slightly lifted off the floor.

All this in mind, There is a huge, very challenging, yet very worth it part of the game that people aren't putting their full thought into, and that is passing and catching a ball over the truss. If two robots had the ability to pass and catch over the truss for EVERY cycle, and lets say that each cycle of pedestal->HP->robot zone 1 ->robot zone 2->robot zone 3 lasts about 30 seconds, that's around 4 cycles per match. If the ball goes over the truss, that's another 40 points. If the ball goes over the truss AND IS CAUGHT, that's 80 points, the equivalent of 2 3-assist cycles, and given this game, a proper "end game" score, if the game were to have one.

The pass-and-catch, I feel, is the equivalent of the end game that seems to be lacking from the game, and I think that a lot of people are underestimating how hard it will be to pass a ball from robot to robot, with little knowledge of how far/high alliance members throw their balls and how good they are at catching. As this game is centered around communication and cooperation between teams, I think this will require a ton of effort and communication between all alliance partners to make work, and a lot of testing and practice beforehand, as some people did for the double or triple balance in 2012. That is the spirit of this game, assisting one another, and so I don't believe there will be another catch (pun intended), but I do think passing and catching will be harder than we think.

That's why I think it would be a pretty idea good to coordinate with teams in your area to practice with each others robots during build season. This isn't about building one robot that can do everything anymore, teams will really need to cooperate and know how to work together more than ever.

[Magnetorb]

G12. An ALLIANCE may not POSSESS their opponent’s BALLS.

I don't like how there's not much that we can do in the way of defense other than deflecting balls and playing goalie. It's almost all offense. Games are more fun when you can steal the ball, etc. It seems like there has to be more to this game.

[UnTrustedTruss]

Originally Posted by Magnetorb

I don't like how there's not much that we can do in the way of defense other than deflecting balls and playing goalie. It's almost all offense. Games are more fun when you can steal the ball, etc. It seems like there has to be more to this game.

Our team has been thinking of the ball like we thought of the frisbees last year. The game "objective" is to place the Frisbees in the goal, but really the game comes down to off the ball movement. Sure you could steal the ball, but in higher levels it is really coming down to off-ball movement as changing a 100% shooter to an 80% shooter when you are shooting 0% does no good.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Magnetorb

I don't like how there's not much that we can do in the way of defense other than deflecting balls and playing goalie. It's almost all offense. Games are more fun when you can steal the ball, etc. It seems like there has to be more to this game.

Blue robot gobbles up the ONLY red ball and holds it for the entire match. Not very exciting. That kind of defense just isn't allowable with the game as it's designed. Not if you want to watch something other than six robots playing keep-away.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Magnetorb

I don't like how there's not much that we can do in the way of defense other than deflecting balls and playing goalie. It's almost all offense. Games are more fun when you can steal the ball, etc. It seems like there has to be more to this game.

Compared to previous FRC games, there are a ton of defensive opportunities here. You know you can block your opponents' robots as much as you want, right?

[rzoeller]

Originally Posted by bduddy

Compared to previous FRC games, there are a ton of defensive opportunities here. You know you can block your opponents' robots as much as you want, right?

I'd be careful with that though. Defending a robot possessing a ball could be an easy way to be ruled as possessing it yourself, if you make any sort of meaningful contact.

[kmusa]

Originally Posted by rzoeller

I'd be careful with that though. Defending a robot possessing a ball could be an easy way to be ruled as possessing it yourself, if you make any sort of meaningful contact.

Let's see... We have

Herding or launching imply possession.

Bulldozing does not.

Now we may have possession by both robots.

Is it just me, or will all of the referees and drive team coaches be bald by the end of competition season, as everyone tries to understand what truly defines possession?

"Oh, no Mr. Official, Sir. We weren't trying to deflect our opponent's ball into the far corner of the field. We were driving around, and it just happened to bounce off of us."

-Karlis

( who believes that the GDC is waiting for a water game, to finally replace their FIRST dictionary with one from Merriam-Webster )

[AndrewPospeshil]

One thing I think is almost definite is that if there's an added end game, it won't be a hanging challenge. This wouldn't necessarily provide any benefits, seeing as this year's hang on the truss allows for only one level (even though most teams did only one level hang last year, there was at least the capacity to do three) and it was literally just done. I don't think FIRST would reuse the exact same objective as last year, so we are left to deduce that there's a good chance the end game will involve the human players at least a little bit. Maybe not to score like last year, but they can possibly grab more than one ball and place it on the field???? I really don't know, but the human players have almost no role and I feel like they will become at least a little more involved later on. Assuming something is added, of course.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by rzoeller

I'd be careful with that though. Defending a robot possessing a ball could be an easy way to be ruled as possessing it yourself, if you make any sort of meaningful contact.

If this is the case, then getting assists will be extremely easy.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by bduddy

Compared to previous FRC games, there are a ton of defensive opportunities here. You know you can block your opponents' robots as much as you want, right?

I agree that Aerial Assist DOES allow for much more physical defence than many recent FRC games, but its simply untrue that you can block your opponents "as much as you want".

Originally Posted by 2014 FRC Game Manual

<G29>
An ALLIANCE may not pin an opponent ROBOT for more than five (5) seconds. A ROBOT will be considered pinned until the ROBOTS have separated by at least six (6) ft. The pinning ROBOT(S) must then wait for at least three (3) seconds before attempting to pin the same ROBOT again. Pinning is transitory through other objects.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL


<Bluebox>If the pinned ROBOT chases the pinning ROBOT upon retreat, the pinning ROBOT will not be penalized per G29, and the pin will be considered complete.</Bluebox>

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Racer26

I agree that Aerial Assist DOES allow for much more physical defence than many recent FRC games, but its simply untrue that you can block your opponents "as much as you want".

I was taking that rule as a given. It's been in FRC for a long time.

I would be surprised if there isn't something in the first Team Update addressing this "rumor".

[criogod]

With regards to ri3d type mid level robots at every competition. It team went the same route last year (as rookies) and at championships quickly realized our mistake. :-) I think the trick for this year to throw over the truss, that should completely cut off the basic robots due to the bonus points.

[Shocker300]

This speculation is very interesting and it would add a great deal of excitement to the game its self. Right now to me the game seems somewhat boring and a blur to watch.