The Not So-Secret Secret End-Game

[UnTrustedTruss]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Finally, I think you guys are misinterpreting that statement. Try understanding it like this: "launch this year's madness. We're always trying to come up with new ways to keep things fresh and push the boundaries, so we're doing things a bit differently this year, making changes to all parts of the season from kickoff to championship". That sense of the statement has the dual advantages of being true and also not insane.

That makes a ton of sense, and I am doubting that my original theory has any validity. However, I don't get how they added anything this year at all. I have seen nothing particularly new, format wise, this year that would justify that statement

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by UnTrustedTruss

That makes a ton of sense, and I am doubting that my original theory has any validity. However, I don't get how they added anything this year at all. I have seen nothing particularly new, format wise, this year that would justify that statement

The major one I've seen is changing CMP alliance selections to the IRI model.

[Mike Martus]

In my 18 years with a FIRST Team I always come away the first day with a thought...."What is the Smoke and Mirrors", "What is the real intent of the game" and most of all "First Game creators are really smart..... can the game be as it seems".

After a few days, weeks and even into the season the "Real" game emerges, teams re-design and re-adjust to the reality of how the game actually plays.

Yes, some games are better than others - this is the perception of each and every one of us and what we really expect to happen.

Look deep and hard at this game....was the Woodie comments "Smoke and Mirrors?

Great thread guys!

[gabrielc1266]

In my opinion, I do believe that there is a secret end game. That has to do with the Truss, and Human players. Because going through the manual the only thing the human players do at this point is stand there, and if a ball goes out of bounds they get to put it back in, and human players have been a lot more involved in the past years. Especially during the end game. No changes to the robot, but a Not So-Secret Secret End-Game. (Just a thought)

[Darth Drew]

At first, the idea of a big rule change/addition in the middle of the season was intriguing to me and this game does seem different from recent years so I thought it might happen, but Kevin makes a good point.

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

…I think you guys are misinterpreting that statement. Try understanding it like this: "launch this year's madness. We're always trying to come up with new ways to keep things fresh and push the boundaries, so we're doing things a bit differently this year, making changes to all parts of the season from kickoff to championship"…

The kickoff was definitely different, this game is different from previous years (there isn't much one elite robot can do without help from teammates), and the championship is going to be different too (with the four team alliances and the submitting of a three team lineup card).

[DavisC]

Where I think this "secret" endgame lies, is within the Autonomous period.

I believe Triple Play had an endgame where players drove to the end of the field (extra points for getting onto another robot).

I think they added this to the autonomous as to try and encourage more programmers to have some kind of moving autonomous instead of 6 robots sitting there.
Also note they usually don't have this double option to score in Auto...

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by BigJ

I suggest the posters saying that the game feels "incomplete" really sit down with their teams and imagine how the game will be played. There is a lot of underlying depth to this game that I feel some of the posters in this thread aren't really grasping.

I really doubt that an entire new challenge would be added to the game mid-season. Such a move would only tell teams not to trust the game rules in the future.

The more I read topics like this, and some of the other general game discussion, the more I wonder whether people are even reading the rulebook before they post. I know this has always been a problem, but seriously... it seems like at least one in every 5 posts is someone seriously misunderstanding the rules.

[Zuelu562]

Originally Posted by DevenStonow

I'm currently on the road, but is there anything in the manual similar to the past two years that says FIRST can adjust points by X amount prior to Championship? This was in the manual for the last two years for endgames. I don't recall seeing it on my initial readthroughs.

It's a blue box. They say they can change the scoring values by up to 10.

Also, in reference to Woody's comment, it may be worthwhile to go read through the Tournament Section this year. There are some changes to Championship Alliance Selection that I think is AWESOME. Fourth team part of the alliance. 3 Robot Lineup that is unchangeable unless there is a timeout. All 4 teams have a rep in the Driver Station

[UnTrustedTruss]

Originally Posted by Zuelu562

It's a blue box. They say they can change the scoring values by up to 10.

There are a lot of fluff points this year. The mobility points are a joke, along with the low goals being worth nearly nothing (without a combo-assist). There are a lot of balancing to do for this not to be a horrible challenge (all the same design, cookie cutter bots). Sadly, I think my tinfoil hat is the only one talking at this point.

[O_ya]

Originally Posted by raptaconehs

I would like to point out there is a rule stating that a robot cannot extend past 60 inches unless they are in the goalie zone. So I highly doubt that would be the case.

The truss is approximately 62" (give or take up to 5") above the floor. After you take into consideration the hight of your robot, it will most Lilly be mor than the 5 inch grace zone. So this would be very plausible.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by O_ya

The truss is approximately 62" (give or take up to 5") above the floor. After you take into consideration the hight of your robot, it will most Lilly be mor than the 5 inch grace zone. So this would be very plausible.

That's a 0.50" tolerance, not a 5" tolerance. (Or, as it could have been read, a 50" tolerance.)

Which, I might add, is pretty standard tolerance for large parts of an FRC field, which can be expected to vary by an inch or two over the full field.

[rsegrest]

RTM:

G10 The following actions are prohibited with regards to interaction with FIELD elements (excluding BALLS):
A. grabbing,
B. grasping
C. grappling
D. attaching to,
E. damaging,
F. becoming entangled
Violation: FOUL. If the Head Referee determines that further damage is likely to occur, DISABLED. Corrective action (such as eliminating sharp edges, removing the damaging mechanism, and/or re-Inspection) may be required before the ROBOT will be allowed to compete in subsequent MATCHES.

They could add something but hanging from the truss...based on G10 I don't think so...

[AquaMorph]

I think this might have been an end game that was cut last minute. I feel if the game was changed significantly from kick off that would set a bad precedent. Teams who work hard to get a design quickly would be punished. It would also change people's strategies and make the initial brainstorming worthless.

[Brandon_L]

Originally Posted by UnTrustedTruss

We really knew we were onto something when we looked at the rules about the goalie. The Goalie has little or no purpose in this challenge, with the 6 inch limit playing defense is nearly useless. Along with articulating movement at the other teams shot being counted as a foul (I believe, as we are redirecting their ball). Why would they go into so much detail for such a little feature, that defeats the purpose of the task (no tri-assists with a goalie)?

So, why can't the goalie be the first assist and then go back to goal tending?

[UnTrustedTruss]

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

So, why can't the goalie be the first assist and then go back to goal tending?

It has to take down its arm, with the defense only robots of late, could take several tens of seconds. Then it has to be able to pass, which I am guessing many teams that use the defense bot as a training tool for younger members (Normal Team: Elders, Defense only: Freshmen learning shop skills) is not going to be able to do well. Having a dedicated goalie is a major detriment, rather you buy into this theory or not.