Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

[AndyBare]

Oh. Thanks. The way I read it, it was unclear. I do believe you are right though. More than 3 cycle. Apologies.

[GaryVoshol]

A ROBOT is carrying a BALL and commits an offense that results in the ROBOT being DISABLED. I don't want to seem heartless, but really, why should the alliance get another ball in play? They should have encouraged their partner to play correctly and not get DISABLED.

A ROBOT is built to carry a BALL, but sometimes the BALL gets stuck in the ROBOT. Again, tough luck. That's the way you designed it.

A ROBOT unexpectedly stops running while carrying a BALL. Unless it can be shown to be a field fault (comms) and the match replayed, then it's another case of "too bad".

A BALL gets stuck on the TRUSS - I'd rather see the TRUSS redesigned so that a ball can't get stuck, but that raises the height of the top of the TRUSS. So I could see a "semi-field-fault" called here, with a unique remedy of introducing a new BALL. The one on the TRUSS is declared debris. It will make it a little harder for the refs to track the POSSESSIONS, but that's why we get the big bucks.

So we're left with E-stopping. I am wary that if a ROBOT is acting sluggish (low battery maybe?) the team will E-stop. That's not what it's for. In the past, there were even rules for a red card for E-stopping when it's not an emergency. For a true emergency, I can see introducing a new BALL or declaring a replay of the match. But I don't want to be deciding if the E-stop was required or not. And I don't want to tempt teams that are having less than desired performance to push the red button. If the GDC can figure out that problem, then they can decide what the remedy will be for an E-stopped ROBOT.

[AndyBare]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

A BALL gets stuck on the TRUSS - I'd rather see the TRUSS redesigned so that a ball can't get stuck, but that raises the height of the top of the TRUSS. So I could see a "semi-field-fault" called here, with a unique remedy of introducing a new BALL. The one on the TRUSS is declared debris. It will make it a little harder for the refs to track the POSSESSIONS, but that's why we get the big bucks.

What happens when the team uses the newly entered ball to knock the "debris" one off the truss. Then there are two balls on the field.

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

A ROBOT is carrying a BALL and commits an offense that results in the ROBOT being DISABLED. I don't want to seem heartless, but really, why should the alliance get another ball in play? They should have encouraged their partner to play correctly and not get DISABLED.

A ROBOT is built to carry a BALL, but sometimes the BALL gets stuck in the ROBOT. Again, tough luck. That's the way you designed it.

A ROBOT unexpectedly stops running while carrying a BALL. Unless it can be shown to be a field fault (comms) and the match replayed, then it's another case of "too bad".

A BALL gets stuck on the TRUSS - I'd rather see the TRUSS redesigned so that a ball can't get stuck, but that raises the height of the top of the TRUSS. So I could see a "semi-field-fault" called here, with a unique remedy of introducing a new BALL. The one on the TRUSS is declared debris. It will make it a little harder for the refs to track the POSSESSIONS, but that's why we get the big bucks.

So we're left with E-stopping. I am wary that if a ROBOT is acting sluggish (low battery maybe?) the team will E-stop. That's not what it's for. In the past, there were even rules for a red card for E-stopping when it's not an emergency. For a true emergency, I can see introducing a new BALL or declaring a replay of the match. But I don't want to be deciding if the E-stop was required or not. And I don't want to tempt teams that are having less than desired performance to push the red button. If the GDC can figure out that problem, then they can decide what the remedy will be for an E-stopped ROBOT.

I understand the sentiment of "too bad" as a design challenge but I think it is unfair to punish so harshly teams in qualification rounds for the design failures of their randomly selected partners.

In most FRC games, having bad partners is part of the game: If someone doesn't move, they can't score points and your alliance can't reach it's maximum potential. However, if the combined power of your alliance's two robots is better than the three of the opposing alliance, you will still win. This is how it should be and leads to mostly accurate rankings.

In this years game, if your randomly selected alliance partner fails to move at all like so many excellent teams have done in the past, even on Einstein, none of the other alliance robots are allowed to play the game through no fault of their own.

This is not fair. Many teams only get 8 or 9 matches per season to play. How can you take one away from them due to the fault of another robot? Not only will they lose but they don't even get to play.

Now, in eliminations, I would argue that "you failed, too bad" as a design challenge is fair. You pick your partners and you shouldn't have picked someone who isn't reliable. That said, I don't think it is a good gameplay element. As we've seen in Einstein 2011, 2012, and 2013, robots very often become incapacitated before or during matches even at exceedingly high levels of play. For teams it is already discouraging enough to have an alliance partner not working, should we put the nail in their coffin by saying "sorry, you aren't allowed to score any more points by yourselves either"? And to spectators, it isn't fun to not watch one robot move but it's even fun to realize that an entire alliance is not allowed to score points anymore due to one failed robot.


My proposition:

Add a new button with a different connotation from E-Stop, call it E-Disable or something. When it is pushed, it disables the robot connected to it for the rest of the match and specifies that anything that the robot and anything it is possessing is considered field debris for the rest of the match. Restart the cycle by entering a new ball into play immediately as if a ball had just been scored. No penalty for using other than robot is disabled for the rest of the match.

Put a blue box underneath the rule specifying that this should be used in cases where teams believe they will be unable to restart their robot and wish to declare it dead in the water so their alliance may play on. Utilizing it in cases to gain a competitive advantage otherwise is prohibited. Violation: Red Card.


If "you failed, too bad" is the challenge the GDC was going for then don't allow the use of this button in eliminations. My personal opinion is they should allow it, because it makes it a more interesting game for everyone involved.

As for the truss, construct a very slight incline (maybe 1") with the same material used for the incline in the low goal so a ball rolls off. Don't make a new rule for what happens if the ball gets stuck because it won't.

[ToddF]

I liked the aspect of the game that required teams to come up with a technical solution to the ball-in-a-dead-robot problem. But, since they are considering changing the rules, I'll make some suggestions.

Balls stuck on trusses are a field fault.

Change autonomous mode to be 15 seconds long. For the first 5 seconds, neither goal is hot. For the next ten seconds, the goals function as before, randomly becoming hot. This allows time for floor loading of balls, and robots do not need to be preloaded. It also makes it clear which teams respect their partners enough to floor load rather than preloading their robots for auto.

During teleop, if a team feels their robot is dead, they may hit the estop. If the ball is released from the robot within 10 seconds, no other action is necessary, and their only penalty results from potential loss of alliance points. If the ball remains stuck after 10 seconds, that ball is considered dead, and the pedestal light is lit, allowing a replacement to be introduced. That team is issued a yellow card.

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by ToddF

During teleop, if a team feels their robot is dead, they may hit the estop. If the ball is released from the robot within 10 seconds, no other action is necessary, and their only penalty results from potential loss of alliance points. If the ball remains stuck after 10 seconds, that ball is considered dead, and the pedestal light is lit, allowing a replacement to be introduced. That team is issued a yellow card.

I like the yellow card idea. It's ok to use this once in a true emergency in quals (your code goes off the deep end, a major mechanical failure, etc.), but you'll learn your lesson after the first time. If it was the fault of your mechanism, you will learn not to pick up another ball or be DQed from the next match you try.

I'd also like alliance partners to be able to disable another robot to get the ball declared debris.

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

This is very simple. Return the E-Stop rules to the pre-2011 configuration. No red cards for using the E-stop. That's absolute nonsense. No one should ever have to stop and think if it's a good idea to hit a button that is partly intended for emergencies. There may be occasional strategic advantages to an E-Stop, but I don't see the penalty in allowing them to exist...

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by DampRobot

I'd also like alliance partners to be able to disable another robot to get the ball declared debris.

Absolutely not.

[DjScribbles]

It seems to me that further penalizing a team with a stuck ball isn't really necessary (via forcing an E-Stop, foul points, etc).

If placing a new ball into play resets all assist points on a cycle, then that reset can be an effective penalty against the team. If the ball returns to play it must be cleared from the field, just as a left over autonomous ball would be, before a new cycle can resume.

Extra balls on the field are not a benefit in this game, as they only serve to disrupt an alliances rhythm, and present an obstacle to high-value objectives; if a ball gets stuck, reset the cycle, put a new one in play, and get on with the game.

Just my 0.02$

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by DjScribbles

It seems to me that further penalizing a team with a stuck ball isn't really necessary (via forcing an E-Stop, foul points, etc).

If placing a new ball into play resets all assist points on a cycle, then that reset can be an effective penalty against the team. If the ball returns to play it must be cleared from the field, just as a left over autonomous ball would be, before a new cycle can resume.

Extra balls on the field are not a benefit in this game, as they only serve to disrupt an alliances rhythm, and present an obstacle to high-value objectives; if a ball gets stuck, reset the cycle, put a new one in play, and get on with the game.

Just my 0.02$

This is my take on it too.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by DjScribbles

It seems to me that further penalizing a team with a stuck ball isn't really necessary (via forcing an E-Stop, foul points, etc).

If placing a new ball into play resets all assist points on a cycle, then that reset can be an effective penalty against the team. If the ball returns to play it must be cleared from the field, just as a left over autonomous ball would be, before a new cycle can resume.

Extra balls on the field are not a benefit in this game, as they only serve to disrupt an alliances rhythm, and present an obstacle to high-value objectives; if a ball gets stuck, reset the cycle, put a new one in play, and get on with the game.

Just my 0.02$

Then you can have 3 teams running independant cycles on the same alliance, which could be advantagous in some cases, even giving up everything but goal points.

[AdamHeard]

The solution needs to be simple for refs and teams alike.

The proposal that an Estopped robot is declared a dead ball is a good one. It's a good balance of punishment and not being too severe.

[atucker4072]

The update of the manual states they are working on a solution if this kind of thing happens.

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54

I think with how rarely a ball will get stuck on top of the truss, the best recourse is to declare a field fault, similar to jammed nets in 2012.

I disagree.

In 2012, the net and following lexan were responsible for moving the balls out of play quickly and allowing more balls to be scored. If the net was jammed, then the field was not functioning properly.

The truss is responsible for sitting there and being a truss. If it stops sitting there or being a truss and it affects the match, a field fault should be called.

If a ball gets stuck on the truss because the truss sat there and stayed a truss, it is not a field fault.

[notmattlythgoe]

I think the E-Stop option for ball's stuck in the robot are the best option. Once the robot is E-Stopped another ball is place into play and the assist points are reset. If somehow the first ball makes its way back into play the first ball in play earns any assist points that were currently collected. Until the next ball is scored, truss and assist points are not available but the ball can score goal points. This should make it simpler on the referees in the unlikely case that a second ball comes into play later in the game.

[Bob Steele]

I think the best solution would be to allow the team with the stuck ball to E-stop their robot. Then the ball would be field debris.

I think that there should be some kind of penalty on the robot that has a ball stick... not necessarily a point penalty but a playing penalty.

If the rules are left as they are the offending alliance effectively has the "death" penalty of not being able to score any cycle balls. This is pretty harsh.

By only allowing a team with the stuck ball to e-stop, the penalty is not being able to do a triple assist and the loss of a robot during play.
This would be similar to results in previous game to the loss of a robot.

It is also similar to the results of having a robot that does not have a ball stuck but still cannot function on the field.

The Alliance can still go on and function as a two robot alliance and try to overcome that deficit.

The other issue is a ball stuck on the TRUSS.
While this would be a relatively rare situation, it does need to be covered in the rules. A ball stuck on the TRUSS is more a chance act than a robot getting stuck with a ball and should not necessarily entail any kind of penalty.

The only issue is that the ball could easily become dislodged during play AFTER it was considered field debris. This could complicate things on the field .
Considering that this should be a very rare occurrence. I would recommend a 10 second count and then some kind of signal from the head referee that would restart the team with a new cycle ball. This would be the same signal given for a standard deflated ball. If there were still other autonomous balls on the field. The pedestal would not light up.

NOTE:
I do think Evan's suggestion of declaring a field fault might be a better answer to the ball stuck on a TRUSS issue. That would be clean and would not result in the kind of confusion that that ball coming back into the field would cause. The other option would be to declare a field fault WHEN the ball falls off the truss. This situation could be strategic though because if a team were losing they could INTENTIONALLY try to knock the ball off. I think the cleanest solution is an immediate FIELD FAULT.... I don't think this would be a common event.