Suggestions for resolving stuck balls

[jvriezen]

In Team Update #1, the GDC has indicated they are working on how to deal with stuck balls. Let's crowd source some ideas for how to resolve it.

My idea is that if the (head) ref deems that a robot is holding a ball and is not actively making meaningful progress in playing the game (passing for assist, truss toss, scoring attempt) after a reasonable amount of time (5 seconds?), the ref can declare that ball 'dead' and a new ball can be introduced. The original ball is now just field debris and any scoring done by it will be manually deducted. Any ball coming to rest on the truss is also declared dead immediately.

This would cover the cases of dead/disabled bot, stuck ejector as well as the hopefully unlikely 'throwing the match' scenarios.

If a ball is stuck in a bot and the ball declared dead, that bot can then still 'herd' or even carry a new ball (however unlikely) without penalty in order to gain assists.

[jee7s]

Originally Posted by jvriezen

Any ball coming to rest on the truss is also declared dead immediately.

That's potentially problematic. Say this scenario occurs and the new ball is introduced. But, at a later time the ball on the truss then experiences an outside force (another ball, a vibration, a strong breeze) and ceases to be at rest. Then the ball falls onto the floor and there are two balls of that color in play. How do you know which is the legal ball?

I'd say a nice beveled or round plastic cover for the truss that prevents the ball from being at rest on it is a safer bet. It removes the possibility of the second ball being introduced, it's cheap, and it's easy to design.

IMHO, any scenario that results in a second ball being introduced to the field without the existing ball being removed or obviously non-functional (deflated, etc) places too much of a burden on the field personnel and alliance members for tracking which ball is live.

[themccannman]

Originally Posted by jee7s

That's potentially problematic. Say this scenario occurs and the new ball is introduced. But, at a later time the ball on the truss then experiences an outside force (another ball, a vibration, a strong breeze) and ceases to be at rest. Then the ball falls onto the floor and there are two balls of that color in play. How do you know which is the legal ball?

I'd say a nice beveled or round plastic cover for the truss that prevents the ball from being at rest on it is a safer bet. It removes the possibility of the second ball being introduced, it's cheap, and it's easy to design.

IMHO, any scenario that results in a second ball being introduced to the field without the existing ball being removed or obviously non-functional (deflated, etc) places too much of a burden on the field personnel and alliance members for tracking which ball is live.

I like this idea for the truss issue.

My suggestion for stalled/disabled/non-functional robots:

If there is a disabled robot on the field that controls their alliance's only ball that team may attempt to reconnect to their robot or dislodge the ball for a certain amount of time (e.g. 10-20 seconds). If the time expires and the robot is still non-funcitonal the refs will hit the e-stop on that robot and declare the ball as field debris at which point a new ball may be entered in to play.

If the ball later becomes dislodged from the robot I would just restart the game at that point. I doubt it would be a very common occurrence that a robot would get disabled with an alliance ball in possession, their teammates were unable to dislodge the ball, and then they later drop the ball during the match.

[RallyJeff]

Originally Posted by jee7s

That's potentially problematic. Say this scenario occurs and the new ball is introduced. But, at a later time the ball on the truss then experiences an outside force (another ball, a vibration, a strong breeze) and ceases to be at rest. Then the ball falls onto the floor and there are two balls of that color in play. How do you know which is the legal ball?

FYI - G35 already creates the potential for one "debris" ball and one "legal" ball of the same colour on the field at the same time:

G35
BALLS may only be retrieved from the PEDESTAL and only if the PEDESTAL is lit in the ALLIANCE’s color.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL. If the BALL is entered into the FIELD, a second TECHNICAL FOUL and the BALL is considered FIELD debris.

[Trez]

I say tough toe nails if a ball gets stuck in a robot. My team has had alliance mates hit our robot and disrupt shooting during Reboundrumble. A ball could get stuck after a score has been made. So unless the ball is stuck from the start it's not a hopeless problem.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by Trez

I say tough toe nails if a ball gets stuck in a robot. My team has had alliance mates hit our robot and disrupt shooting during Reboundrumble. A ball could get stuck after a score has been made. So unless the ball is stuck from the start it's not a hopeless problem.

My only issue with this is you getting a ball stuck did not hinder the rest of your team from being able to score in the previous games like Rebound Rumble or Ultimate Ascent. When there is only one game piece in play and it gets stuck in a robot that effects the teams that you were randomly paired up with more than it would if there were other game pieces they could continue the game with. By placing another ball into play it will basically have the same effect on the game that it would have had if there were multiple balls in play, the team with the stuck ball becomes pretty useless but the other teams are not stuck with a pointless game for the rest of the match.

[Nuttyman54]

I think the robot needs to be e-stopped or disabled by the field in order for the ball to be declared dead, since a radio or cRIO reset could result in the robot becoming active at a later point if not expressly disabled. This doesn't address if the ball comes loose after the disable (eg a mechanism sags, or a forceful hit on the ball later).

The issue is not just how to determine when a ball is "dead" but also deal with what happens if the ball returns to play, since the game is only designed to track one ball at a time in teleop.

I think with how rarely a ball will get stuck on top of the truss, the best recourse is to declare a field fault, similar to jammed nets in 2012.

[billbo911]

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54

I think the robot needs to be e-stopped or disabled by the field in order for the ball to be declared dead, since a radio or cRIO reset could result in the robot becoming active at a later point if not expressly disabled. This doesn't address if the ball comes loose after the disable (eg a mechanism sags, or a forceful hit on the ball later).

The issue is not just how to determine when a ball is "dead" but also deal with what happens if the ball returns to play, since the game is only designed to track one ball at a time in teleop.

I think with how rarely a ball will get stuck on top of the truss, the best recourse is to declare a field fault, similar to jammed nets in 2012.

+1 on every point.

[AndyBare]

My suggestion would just say any ball that cannot be put back into play is "dead." No ball will replace it. This will increase downtime between cycles as an alliance lose their balls to "death" by getting them stuck, etc. It will make teams sure that they do not want to be the problem. This will encourage teams to make sure batteries are charged, autonomous works, etc, without blindly putting a robot onto a field where there is a chance of something going wrong.

[AndyBare]

To elaborate, we know each team has 3 balls that cycle in and out of the field. while 1 is in play, 1 is waiting on the pedestal, and 1 is beside it. As the field ball is scored, the next is brought in and the positions switch. A dead ball will be replaced by the next in line on the pedestal, but no ball will replace it as a third "live" ball. The alliance would then only have 2.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by AndyBare

To elaborate, we know each team has 3 balls that cycle in and out of the field. while 1 is in play, 1 is waiting on the pedestal, and 1 is beside it. As the field ball is scored, the next is brought in and the positions switch. A dead ball will be replaced by the next in line on the pedestal, but no ball will replace it as a third "live" ball. The alliance would then only have 2.

Please state the rule that shows that there is ONLY 3 balls that cycle.

I do believe you are in error there.

[AndyBare]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Please state the rule that shows that there is ONLY 3 balls that cycle.

I do believe you are in error there.

3.1.2 MATCH Logistics
Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH is SCORED, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1).

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by AndyBare

3.1.2 MATCH Logistics
Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH is SCORED, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1).

I believe that just means on the field at the start of the match, that does not necessarily mean that there are only 3 balls available and those 3 balls are in a rotation of any sort.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by AndyBare

3.1.2 MATCH Logistics
Although an ALLIANCE may start a MATCH with up to three (3) BALLS, the PEDESTAL will only be illuminated when the last BALL that started the MATCH is SCORED, effectively reducing the number of BALLS in play per ALLIANCE to one (1).

All that states is that there are 3 balls that start in play (during autonomous) not that there are only 3 balls of a specific color that are cycled.

[Aaron.Graeve]

When I read 3.1.2, It seemed to me that the rule is only refering to balls in play on the field or with the human player (bearing in mind my interpretation is far from official). I trust that the field crew would have more than 3 balls per alliance. If one were to go flat in an irreparable way, that would adversely affect high powered alliances that intended to use all of their balls in auto later in the tournament.

I would compare this to the number of discs at competitions last year. Events had disks to spare on off chance that one was destroyed or damaged beyond reasonable use, even though the game manual only specified a particular number of game pieces to be in-game. I think (again in no official capacity) that there would be more that three balls "in cycle" at any given time but only one of them would be in-play. I have seen nothing indicating that the pedestal would be empty and lit at the same time (the condition if a there was a shortage of balls) and the field tour videos seem to indicate there would always be a ball waiting.

This is just my unofficial opinion.