Aerial Assist and Ill Will

[GaryVoshol]

Another thing that generates ill will is when a team comes in and says, "This is what we're going to to this match, so you have to do ..." I don't care if it's the top ranked team in the event, or in the country for that matter. Don't go dictating what others will do just because of your standing or reputation.

If you're an alliance captain in eliminations, then you have some say. Still, as an alliance captain, you should be soliciting information and advice, not making demands. The alliance captain has the final decision, but be sure you're making an informed decision.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

Another thing that generates ill will is when a team comes in and says, "This is what we're going to to this match, so you have to do ..." I don't care if it's the top ranked team in the event, or in the country for that matter. Don't go dictating what others will do just because of your standing or reputation.

If you're an alliance captain in eliminations, then you have some say. Still, as an alliance captain, you should be soliciting information and advice, not making demands. The alliance captain has the final decision, but be sure you're making an informed decision.

That's why this year more than any other year it is important to get into the que line as early as possible to consult with your partners to come up with a suitable strategy for the match instead of just stumbling up onto the field at the last second and winging it.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

That's why this year more than any other year it is important to get into the que line as early as possible to consult with your partners to come up with a suitable strategy for the match instead of just stumbling up onto the field at the last second and winging it.

In my experience match strategy (even in qualifications) happens before you're in the que line.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by Gregor

In my experience match strategy (even in qualifications) happens before you're in the que line.

If it isn't, you need to change that!

[Canon reeves]

Alot of people fail to see the big picture, including pretty much all of the team except me. They don't realize that winning every match isn't as important as you think because you will get paired with the worst possible alliances against the best teams, it happens. But whats important is that YOU and YOUR team focus on what they can do and preform well. Last year, our robot only had an arm that could flip over, if thats how to word it, but if we extended all the way it was a penalty. We had our last match against the top team at our regional, who also proceeded to win worlds, that we were against. We could score a few frisbees in the low goal but it wasn't worth it, we were with total rookies, who couldn't score. I had to fight my whole team for 20 minutes to convince them we would be better off showing that we could do good defense, which we did towards the end of the matches but not yet notable to scouts, than to try and out dump the best team. In the end our own alliance member broke their promise and tried to play D on them, which they couldn't at all, and ended up making us miss the other robot by trying to shove us out of the way so they could do it which caused us to get nowhere. Was it our fault, in a way yes, like I said, we hadn't done anything noteable until day two of quals, but moral of the story is, I believe that if you do what you do well, every match, than your alliance won't hold you down. Its about getting picked for finals for teams like me, not trying to prove yourself every match when you obviously can't. People need to realize this, and this isn't directed towards the top teams, yall do what yall do, I am in no position to tell yall anything, but rookie and newer teams, do what everyone has been saying, they say it for a reason, do what you can do and do it well! If I'm wrong anywhere, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm all about constantly learning!

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Gregor

In my experience match strategy (even in qualifications) happens before you're in the que line.

Originally Posted by pfreivald

If it isn't, you need to change that!

At regionals or championship, I'd agree with you. Strategy discussions happen much more frequently in the queue line at district competitions, thanks to the tighter match turnarounds. Often at least one of the members of your alliance won't have returned from their previous match until it's almost time to queue up again and/or will have to spend the little time they have between queues to repair their robot.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

At regionals or championship, I'd agree with you. Strategy discussions happen much more frequently in the queue line at district competitions, thanks to the tighter match turnarounds. Often at least one of the members of your alliance won't have returned from their previous match until it's almost time to queue up again and/or will have to spend the little time they have between queues to repair their robot.

Then you need a strategy person (we use our drive coach) to seek out other teams ahead of time to iron out who is doing what in the next match. If they have to talk during repairs, so be it.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

At regionals or championship, I'd agree with you. Strategy discussions happen much more frequently in the queue line at district competitions, thanks to the tighter match turnarounds. Often at least one of the members of your alliance won't have returned from their previous match until it's almost time to queue up again and/or will have to spend the little time they have between queues to repair their robot.

I've competed at a 36 team regional with 12 matches each (smaller than most district events), and we still managed to find the time. If your alliance partner is going to have a match close to your match with them, run through strategy before that match then, it's so important that you have everyone sit down and talk together. It avoids conversation dominance by one team since everyone is relaxed (reletive term ) with plenty (again, reletive) of time for everyone to contribute.

[The_ShamWOW88]

Originally Posted by JimBowey

This is an opportunity to direct greater focus on gracious professionalism. And for goodness sakes, no coaches or mentors on the drive teams, please.

Don't start that again....teams will work out the best strategies for their alliance and those that can't without being ungracious or unprofessional will find themselves in the stands during eliminations

[rsegrest]

Originally Posted by The_ShamWOW88

....teams will work out the best strategies for their alliance and those that can't without being ungracious or unprofessional will find themselves in the stands during eliminations

Agreed and have seen this happen on more than one occasion.

[bduddy]

2 things.

1) Do people not realize that a box on wheels can still score an assist? That's huge, and pretty hard to do while defending. I haven't tested it, but I would guess it could probably push a ball into a low goal, too.

2) For some teams, building a kitbot and then spending 4 weeks doing drive testing may very well be their best shot at building a competitive robot. Would that be the most inspirational build strategy for those teams? I highly doubt it! Are we really going to insist that those teams do it anyway, just so the "elite" here don't have to suffer the indignity of dealing with their less-than-perfect mechanisms?

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

Then you need a strategy person (we use our drive coach) to seek out other teams ahead of time to iron out who is doing what in the next match. If they have to talk during repairs, so be it.

As mentioned, often it's not even talking during repairs but they're still on the field for their previous match. 2 or 3 match turnarounds are not uncommon in districts.

Originally Posted by Gregor

I've competed at a 36 team regional with 12 matches each (smaller than most district events), and we still managed to find the time. If your alliance partner is going to have a match close to your match with them, run through strategy before that match then, it's so important that you have everyone sit down and talk together. It avoids conversation dominance by one team since everyone is relaxed (reletive term ) with plenty (again, reletive) of time for everyone to contribute.

Smaller in terms of team quantity, sure. But not in terms of schedule. Keep in mind that there's no true practice day at districts, and the first few hours of day 1 are spent on practice matches before qualifications even start. At smaller regionals, the event crew often runs longer cycle times between matches. The 2012 GTRE regional, which I'm assuming is the one you're referring to, ran a relatively leisurely 8:02 cycle time, the second longest cycle time among regionals that year (behind Waterloo). Because of the compressed schedule, that's a luxury that districts cannot afford. And those extra couple minutes between your matches is frequently the difference between discussing strategy in the pits and in the queue line.

[omalleyj]

This is an interesting thread, but 6 pages in, shouldn't there be more focus on solutions?

I see two core requirements:
1) the ability to adapt to alliances with widely varying capabilities
2) the ability to coordinate play with little or no time to strategize (and none at all to practice)

I think both of these point to doing a lot of up front planning, and then socializing those plans.
Sports analogy: every team has different plays, but most have common elements. If I am playing touch football I know what a square out is. Whether I have never met the other guy, whether I am playing qb or wr, a 10 yd square out is understood by both, and can be practiced separately.

It could be as simple as a published playbook for a variety of common situations, and an agreed terminology.

(Maybe I'll do some football style diagrams later, when I have something better than MS Paint)
play 001, Rolling Wedge:
3 herder robots against heavy defense
Form a right triangle against the inbounding zone wall
Inbound to robot at 90
Robots move as a group to center
Robot at 90 switches off with robot on its flank
Robots move as a group to scoring zone
Robot on point opens up a lane, robot with ball pushes it down the lane
Robot on point slides in behind the ball and pushes it into the goal

...
play 093, Pick and Go
2 Shooters, 1 Blocker, against moderate defense
Shooter1 and Blocker in inbounding zone, Shooter2 other side of truss
Blocker holds off defender from Shooter1 until in passing range
Shooter1 passes to Shooter2
Blocker moves scoring zone
Shooter1 moves to middle zone and stops setting a Pick
Shooter2 uses pick to shield a move and pass to the Blocker
Shooters both move to scoring zone
Blocker passes to whichever shooter is open
Shooterx shoots
...

Look at the alliance and opposition and downselect to the 'plays' that are appropriate, so that every match isn't reinventing the wheel.

I tried to focus on examples that used all 3 robots on offense, rather than sending someone away to defend, which seems to be a bone of contention. A decent blocking robot can neutralize a better defender just by being in between them and the action. That would be more desireable against opponents with long cycle times or inaccurate shooters, than defending.

Each team could focus on and develop schemes that play to their strengths. Everyone should practice close passes, long passes, human passes, etc., not just shooting. And be prepared to play any position they are capable of.

My, rather wordy, two cents.

[Richard Wallace]

^^
Great post.

Congratulations on recognizing the game -- we've been asking the GDC to let us play football for several years now. And this is the year.

Aerial Assist is football.

[Blackphantom91]

This thread is rather interesting! I feel that although plays would be very interesting to develop and plan. There is very little time for teams and drivers to have them fully memorized.

For example, even if you get the teams at the tournament as soon as you show up to the regional or district event the information it is still not enough time with out practice unfortunately. Anyone remember orchestrating a triple at championships at 2012? Teams would have a hard time doing it without practicing with each other and getting the flow of working together.

The football analogy is really good comparison. The amount of coordination before hand in my opinion is going to be way crazier than other years past because you are no longer working by ones self. although at least you can talk to your teammate in match unlike sometimes in 2012. (qualification white bridge balancing)

I ultimately think drivers will incoherently develop a sort of flow of offense and defense just as they always have due to certain game elements. I do think that the robots that are in the second tier of a regional will want to show off their capabilities. For example, climbing in 2013 even if it will take them longer than per say epic scorer would. This is all apart of the game by design in my opinion. It is going to take gracious professionalism to win and to lose due to partners. The Robot in 30th place may just want to show off what they want which is ok. This is the reality of what powerhouses will have to deal with.

Long story short TLDR The game is from what I can tell intended to be this way. Its unfortunate for powerhouses because they may come off as the bad team, but its the way the game is meant to be worked though. Teams that minimize this will have great success in my opinion