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Unread 11-02-2014, 15:58
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Re: Any Wicked Awesome Goalies out there ?

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Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
This is incorrect. Logic would show you that preventing an opponent from scoring is exactly the same as scoring the same number of points yourself when it comes to determining who won the match. 0-1 match scores, while boring, count the same as 0-120 scores from a WLT perspective.

However, this changes when you start looking at it from a ranking perspective rather than a winning perspective. Take, for example, years where your second sort was based off of your opponent's score. During those years it was beneficial to allow your opponents to score so long as you could outscore them.

So, what I'm saying is that offense or defense wins matches (it doesn't matter which one) but offense tends to rank higher. Now, the really fun part of the discussion involves the difficulty and risk of effective defense as well as the metagame of the area you are playing. You also need to take into account the difference between effective defense and crappy defense (I'll give you a hint 90% of defense is of the crappy variety, maybe more).
Yup. Winning the match is always the first priority. It's a win if you score more than your partners. It's also a win if you prevent your partner from scoring any points at all.

The best offense is a good defense!
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Unread 11-02-2014, 19:14
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Re: Any Wicked Awesome Goalies out there ?

If we are talking about top tier teams, which we originally were, the question isn't so much "is defense effective?" as it is "is defense more effective than offense, given their vast capabilities?" I believe that the answer is no. I question how effective an amazing defense bot can really be. Blocking is pretty much out of the question, because you can just send a robot to push any goalie out of the way. Anyways, the "safe zones" that you may have heard about elsewhere on CD are immune to goalies. And what else is there? You can have an awesome, powerful drivetrain, but most top tier teams have one already. And top tier teams already have great drivers. They could also put up a 5ft wall for blocking, but that is trivial for these powerhouses. I can't imagine any other way that you could be more effective at defense. So they have the choice to either call themselves a defensive bot and be finished halfway through week 2, or add on offensive mechanisms and be able to be both (like they have always done). Is that really even a decision?
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Unread 18-02-2014, 15:03
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Re: Any Wicked Awesome Goalies out there ?

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Originally Posted by bEdhEd View Post
From my experience, being offensive wins matches more often than being defensive. I've found that acquiring more points for your own alliance is much more valuable than preventing the other alliance from scoring. The bottom line is that offense scores points, and defense does not. Teams like 1114 and 118 are aware of this, and may be too busy during a match scoring assists and goals, that they need not bother with being a goalie. I do see a possibility, though, of a high performance team choosing a good goalie robot -- that ideally can also score in the low or high goal and can do controlled assists -- as an alliance pick.
What you say is generally true. Outscoring your opponents is what wins. If your combined offense and defense is better than theirs you win, and that depends on the game and the effectiveness of the defense. In 2000, team 25 had the ultimate defensive robot. It could score almost zero on general offense, but could remove balls from their opponents goal and score them for their alliance. They couldn't qualify worth a darn, but were deadly with the right partner and ultimately ended up on the Championship alliance.

In this year's game, with a lot of high scoring teams likely, it is possible that a good defensive robot vs. the opponents high scorer might even the odds in elimination. Most likely that defensive (third choice) will be a generalist that can maneuver, pass, score with a kick-$@#$@#$@# driver as opposed to a special defense only bot.

A remote possibility is an autonomous defense specialist. This will only come about if someone has such a devastating autonomous scorer that a defense is needed. It is unknown if a super autonomous scorer will be developed.
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Unread 18-02-2014, 15:06
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Re: Any Wicked Awesome Goalies out there ?

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Originally Posted by Dr.Bot View Post
What you say is generally true. Outscoring your opponents is what wins. If your combined offense and defense is better than theirs you win, and that depends on the game and the effectiveness of the defense. In 2000, team 25 had the ultimate defensive robot. It could score almost zero on general offense, but could remove balls from their opponents goal and score them for their alliance. They couldn't qualify worth a darn, but were deadly with the right partner and ultimately ended up on the Championship alliance.

In this year's game, with a lot of high scoring teams likely, it is possible that a good defensive robot vs. the opponents high scorer might even the odds in elimination. Most likely that defensive (third choice) will be a generalist that can maneuver, pass, score with a kick-$@#$@#$@# driver as opposed to a special defense only bot.

A remote possibility is an autonomous defense specialist. This will only come about if someone has such a devastating autonomous scorer that a defense is needed. It is unknown if a super autonomous scorer will be developed.
A number of teams have shown videos with 2- and 3-ball auto moves. I think that qualifies as a devastating autonomous scorer. A blocker that could stop one of those robots will make life very miserable for the other alliance.
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Unread 10-02-2014, 23:17
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Re: Any Wicked Awesome Goalies out there ?

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Originally Posted by BethMo View Post
During brainstorming someone suggested a goalie bot four feet long (possibly with a 20" extension that pops out at each end) by eight inches wide, 60" tall, and a drive system allowing it to speedily move sideways. Along the top would be a line of pneumatic pop-up blockers, which the operator controls with something like a piano keyboard.
Sounds like it would end up on its side allot... definitely pushed out into open field to try not to fall over as soon as possible in a match.
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Unread 11-02-2014, 06:50
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Being that each offensive team has only one ball, a good defender might be the winning teams mvr (most valuable robot). This year defense in a one on one matchup.
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Unread 11-02-2014, 08:21
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Re: Any Wicked Awesome Goalies out there ?

My team put a LOT of consideration into the idea, but ultimately the mentors vetoed the dedicated goalie.

You can find an animation here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=408YXf6kGJ0

The idea is up for grabs if you can build it in a week...

PM me if you want a detailed .blend file.

Last edited by ohrly? : 11-02-2014 at 08:22. Reason: Offered a .blend file
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Unread 11-02-2014, 09:35
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Re: Any Wicked Awesome Goalies out there ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohrly? View Post
My team put a LOT of consideration into the idea, but ultimately the mentors vetoed the dedicated goalie.

You can find an animation here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=408YXf6kGJ0

The idea is up for grabs if you can build it in a week...

PM me if you want a detailed .blend file.
Even though I don't think the goalie strategy is good this year, I like this design. It's quite clever and well thought out.
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Unread 11-02-2014, 09:47
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Re: Any Wicked Awesome Goalies out there ?

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
Even though I don't think the goalie strategy is good this year, I like this design. It's quite clever and well thought out.
Unfortunately, it is against the rules.

G12

An ALLIANCE may not POSSESS their opponent’s BALLS. The following criteria define POSSESSION:
1. “carrying” (moving while supporting BALLS in or on the ROBOT),
2. “herding” (repeated pushing or bumping),
3. “launching” (impelling BALLS to a desired location or direction via a MECHANISM in motion relative to the ROBOT),
4. “trapping” (overt isolation or holding one or more BALLS against a FIELD element or ROBOT in an attempt to shield them).
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Unread 11-02-2014, 11:27
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Re: Any Wicked Awesome Goalies out there ?

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Originally Posted by gpetilli View Post
3. “launching” (impelling BALLS to a desired location or direction via a MECHANISM in motion relative to the ROBOT)
Emphasis mine.

I think this rule is ambiguous; it can be argued effectively that such a mechanism impels the ball in an arbitrary direction not at all determined or "desired" by the drivers.

It could also be argued that there is a "desired" direction, namely "not towards the goal."

Without a clarification, the legality of such a mechanism is unclear.
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Unread 11-02-2014, 12:43
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Re: Any Wicked Awesome Goalies out there ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpetilli View Post
Unfortunately, it is against the rules.

G12

An ALLIANCE may not POSSESS their opponent’s BALLS. The following criteria define POSSESSION:
1. “carrying” (moving while supporting BALLS in or on the ROBOT),
2. “herding” (repeated pushing or bumping),
3. “launching” (impelling BALLS to a desired location or direction via a MECHANISM in motion relative to the ROBOT),
4. “trapping” (overt isolation or holding one or more BALLS against a FIELD element or ROBOT in an attempt to shield them).
If the post is sliding left/right, this would only be "impelling the ball to a desired location" if the ball were to be deflected significantly left or right. Yes, while an off-center bounce would send the ball off to the side, The major (>>95%) "impulsion" would be caused by a deflection rather than a launch.

I would invoke the "grandmother clause" in this situation. A move like this is pretty clearly a "block" more than anything else (blocking being a deflection).

I think people are way over-thinking the "possession vs defense" side of this game, especially when it comes to goalie. IMHO a robot like this is quite obviously legal, especially because the intent of the device is clear (to move the defense device in front of, not "impel" the ball)
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Unread 11-02-2014, 12:51
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Re: Any Wicked Awesome Goalies out there ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJ View Post
One could argue "away from the goal" is a desired direction.
This seems useful here.
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Unread 11-02-2014, 13:03
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Re: Any Wicked Awesome Goalies out there ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohrly? View Post
My team put a LOT of consideration into the idea, but ultimately the mentors vetoed the dedicated goalie.

You can find an animation here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=408YXf6kGJ0

The idea is up for grabs if you can build it in a week...

PM me if you want a detailed .blend file.

I love this robot. It's completely legal, and I really wish you had built it. It's really well thought out and would be an awesome addition to nay alliance, especially if you could truss it from the goalie position.
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Unread 11-02-2014, 22:17
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Re: Any Wicked Awesome Goalies out there ?

our team won in Montreal last year because we could hang, shooter in auto, and defend like mad. Defense is always important.
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Unread 20-02-2014, 14:40
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Re: Any Wicked Awesome Goalies out there ?

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Originally Posted by Master Mac View Post
our team won in Montreal last year because we could hang, shooter in auto, and defend like mad. Defense is always important.
Totally agree. Our alliance could not win Montreal in 2013 without you guys.

Defence is effective as long as the effectiveness in the time spent defending is superior to the amount of points a robot can score during that same time. During the finals in Montreal 2013, 1075 was excellent at shutting down the two teams who happened to have the highest OPR and be on the same finalist alliance. 1075 created room for us and 3387 to cycle through and score. It was beautiful.
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