Bagging rules

[stevebig]

I wanted to check on rules for bagging a robot and what can be done with another robot.

Here is the situation that I need verification to see what is possible.

Robot1 is bagged with all it's parts (except electronics board) and weights about 90 lbs at the set bagging date.

Robot2 is also being built one week prior to the bag/tag date but isn't finished and this is how robot1 ended up in the bag. The goal is to make a better robot with better frame and stronger thrower but kids did not finish on time.

So here is the if, Robot2 has many parts removed to get it down to a weight of 45lbs and the other half left together is about the same 45lbs. When Robot 1 bag is opened can we just remove a few small parts from robot 1 and placed on robot2 and then put robot 2 parts back on and then place it in the bag?

Is this within the rules of First?

[cgmv123]

The bottom line is that you can only bring 45 lbs of Fabricated Items that are unbagged to each event. If you have a robot access period, it is considered part of your event for bagging purposes. You can't add 45 lbs to the bag during your robot access period and then bring 45 extra lbs to competition.

Your strategy seems to allowed, but don't take my word for it.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by stevebig

I wanted to check on rules for bagging a robot and what can be done with another robot.

Here is the situation that I need verification to see what is possible.

Robot1 is bagged with all it's parts (except electronics board) and weights about 90 lbs at the set bagging date.

Robot2 is also being built one week prior to the bag/tag date but isn't finished and this is how robot1 ended up in the bag. The goal is to make a better robot with better frame and stronger thrower but kids did not finish on time.

So here is the if, Robot2 has many parts removed to get it down to a weight of 45lbs and the other half left together is about the same 45lbs. When Robot 1 bag is opened can we just remove a few small parts from robot 1 and placed on robot2 and then put robot 2 parts back on and then place it in the bag?

Is this within the rules of First?

I don't see why not. As long as the parts that are currently unbagged this would be no different than a team arriving at a competition with 45lbs of a robot and putting the bagged parts on.

[stevebig]

This is not at a event, but before the event. Pretty much it would be a wholesale switch of robot1 for robot2 within the 6 hour period allowed before the first event.

Take 90 lbs out of the bag which is robot1 and replace with robot2 which is 90 lbs, which has never been in the bag.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by stevebig

This is not at a event, but before the event. Pretty much it would be a wholesale switch of robot1 for robot2 within the 6 hour period allowed before the first event.

As long as that switch only uses 45 lbs of unbagged custom/assembled items then you're fine.

[rsegrest]

My inclination is that this is a violation of the 'spirit' of the rules.

It seems (if I remember correctly) that the GDC posted a clarification that while a robot system may be withheld they did not intend for the majority of a robot to be withheld. I will look for the reference and post shortly.

Also, are we talking about un-bagging and working on a robot? I thought that this was not allowed unless you were attending a 2-day event...

[stevebig]

Yes it is before a 2 day event.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by rsegrest

My inclination is that this is a violation of the 'spirit' of the rules.

It seems (if I remember correctly) that the GDC posted a clarification that while a robot system may be withheld they did not intend for the majority of a robot to be withheld. I will look for the reference and post shortly.

Also, are we talking about un-bagging and working on a robot? I thought that this was not allowed unless you were attending a 2-day event...

You're probably thinking of this statement from Team Update 2014-02-11:

The original intent of the 45 lb FABRICATED ITEMS allowance granted to Teams via R18 was to allow Teams the opportunity to keep a part of their ROBOT out of the bag for further development. However, because of the definition of ROBOT and the term’s use in R15, Teams were not allowed to keep a required ROBOT system (e.g. mobility, control, etc.) out of the bag. R15 and R18 have been updated to better capture the original intent.

The key to remember with robot access periods is that they are there to replace the practice day work teams can do at a regional. As such, they should be treated exactly like you were at a regional - you can only use a total of 45lb of parts on the robot that were not in the bag when you sealed it either on stop-build day OR at your last district event (obviously not applicable yet, as the first official events just started today), no matter how many times you open the bag. You CAN'T open it once, swap in 45 lbs you've been working on, seal it, then open it again to swap in another 45 lbs.

[protoserge]

I'm confused by your wording, but the rule is fairly clear.

When you arrive at competition, you must bring your bagged and unopened "Robot1". If you used it for a demonstration as allowed per the rules, it must be unaltered.

You may bring up to 45 lbs of fabricated items total into the venue. This includes your frame, arm, and assembled electronics board. You may be asked by the inspectors to weigh these items.

[rsegrest]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

You're probably thinking of this statement from Team Update 2014-02-11:
The key to remember with robot access periods is that they are there to replace the practice day work teams can do at a regional. As such, they should be treated exactly like you were at a regional - you can only use a total of 45lb of parts on the robot that were not in the bag when you sealed it either on stop-build day OR at your last district event (obviously not applicable yet, as the first official events just started today), no matter how many times you open the bag. You CAN'T open it once, swap in 45 lbs you've been working on, seal it, then open it again to swap in another 45 lbs.

Thank you yes this is the one I was looking for

Also, as far as the OP, I looked in the manual that six-hour time frame is intended to replace the 'practice' day in a 3-day event (i.e. 2-day attenders should not be penalized by losing that 6-hour work day the rest of us get).

Personally, I would post the question in Q&A. I am interested in the response they will give. Remember, while Delphi is a great place to bounce ideas we are by no means the final answer. I would hate for us to be wrong (one way or the other) and you guys suffer for it.

[stevebig]

okay that is what I thought and wanted to check on.

That whole sale swaps are not allowed and that you can only move 45lbs back into the bag and not 90 new pounds.

[Racer26]

You can, however, bring in whatever COTS and raw material you like, and FABRICATE it into Robot2-facsimile parts at the competition venue. I assume this is the same in the "practice day replacement" unbag periods. I can FABRICATE as many parts as I like from COTS and RAW MATERIAL during my UNBAG window, no?

[Jon Stratis]

Yes, you can fabricate new components from COTS parts and raw materials during the access periods and put them on the robot and it would not count against the 45 lb withholding limit, per R18:

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs. Items made at an Event do not count towards this weight limit.

For Teams attending 2-Day Events, these FABRICATED ITEMS may be used during the Robot Access Period and/or brought to the Event, but the total weight may not exceed 45 lbs. FABRICATED ITEMS constructed during the Robot Access Period and bagged with the ROBOT are exempt from this limit.

Emphasis mine. The part right before the emphasis clearly spells out the answer to the OP's question, as well.

[stevebig]

So the static set of Fabricated items, these are consider the items that you didn't bag during the build and they are not modified after end of build and are under 45#?

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by stevebig

So the static set of Fabricated items, these are consider the items that you didn't bag during the build and they are not modified after end of build and are under 45#?

You can continue to modify the 45 lbs of FABRICATED ITEMS allowed per R18. The word "static" is used to indicate that, when arriving at an event, you're limited to a single set of items that are under 45lbs - you can't bring in 45 lbs of items, then remove 10 lbs of them later to bring in a different 10 lbs.