Were to store practice bot at regional?

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

What about COTS items.

It's a whole lot of work to remove all the COTS items from a practice bots for spares ahead of time.

As I read the definition of a FABRICATED ITEM in the 2014 Manual:

FABRICATED ITEM: any COMPONENT or MECHANISM that has been altered, built, cast, constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted, produced, surface coated, or conjured partially or completely into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT.

a MECHANISM built using a COTS item is a FABRICATED ITEM. R18 precludes access to more than 45 lb of FABRICATED ITEMS, so to be excluded from the 45 lb limit, a COTS item would need to be removed from any FABRICATED ITEM before the team has access to it during an event.

Yeah, it is a whole lot of work.

[tim-tim]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

As I read the definition of a FABRICATED ITEM in the 2014 Manual:a MECHANISM built using a COTS item is a FABRICATED ITEM. R18 precludes access to more than 45 lb of FABRICATED ITEMS, so to be excluded from the 45 lb limit, a COTS item would need to be removed from any FABRICATED ITEM before the team has access to it during an event.

Yeah, it is a whole lot of work.

I think Adam was asking if during an event, he could remove a COTS item (call it a CIM motor) from a practice robot and then use said CIM motor with no questions asked, penalty, etc.

Adam, feel free to correct my interpretation...

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by tim-tim

I think Adam was asking if during an event, he could remove a COTS item (call it a CIM motor) from a practice robot and then use said CIM motor with no questions asked, penalty, etc.

Adam, feel free to correct my interpretation...

I understood Adam's question the same way you did. My answer is that the practice robot is a FABRICATED ITEM, and that team access to such items is limited to 45 lb during an event as required by R18.

[Sparky3D]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Keep the practice robot offsite (in a trailer, at the shop, whatever). If you need things from it AND you have the weight to spare, go get your parts off of it, bring them in, make a note of how much they weighed and how much weight you have left, and don't go over.

I don't see this as violating any rules, spirit or otherwise. You still have the same limits as everyone else. Teams have done this for years. You only get access to 45 pounds of stuff, you jut choose what stuff to use when you need it.

By this logic, if there was a team with unlimited budget, they could build a dozen robots in different configurations and load them all in a semi-trailer and bring them to the event. Once they see how the game is being played, they can go out to the trailer and select the best mechanisms for the game and bring them inside and put them on their robot? Somehow I don't think this is what FIRST had in mind with the withholding rule.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Teams have done this for years. You only get access to 45 pounds of stuff, you jut choose what stuff to use when you need it.

Chris, you've been around enough to know that just because things were legal in prior years, doesn't mean they are legal this year.

In my opinion, the addition of 'access to' and 'static' in this year's rules makes it pretty clear that bringing your entire practice robot to the parking lot and picking and choosing your 45 pounds based on what you need (or what breaks), is illegal.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by pntbll1313

How can you argue that having access to 120lbs of fabricated items is not against the rule below?

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

This is the core of why bringing a practice bot and stripping off parts is illegal.

The rule says: At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

Emphasis mine.

If you can go to your trailer and get a part from a practice bot, that's access. If you have access, or potential access, to more than 45lbs worth of parts you are in violation of the rule.

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

This is the core of why bringing a practice bot and stripping off parts is illegal.

The rule says: At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

Emphasis mine.

If you can go to your trailer and get a part from a practice bot, that's access. If you have access, or potential access, to more than 45lbs worth of parts you are in violation of the rule.

This brings up an interesting question:

Our 2nd event is 2-3 miles away from our working facility. Does that mean every single part in our facility counts to the 45 lb limit, since we have access to it during the competition?

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

This brings up an interesting question:

Our 2nd event is 2-3 miles away from our working facility. Does that mean every single part in our facility counts to the 45 lb limit, since we have access to it during the competition?

Yes.

Do all of your competitors have the same ability? Otherwise it gives you an exceedingly unfair advantage. This is also why the rules prohibit working on any robot parts outside of the pit area.

[wilsonmw04]

I guess the questions is what defines the event? If it's in the building it counts. Does in the parking lot count? how about 3 blocks away? 4 miles? 250 miles?

If we sent someone to our shop to make a part for our team or another team that is against the rules as well? The definition is vague and causes problems.

[neshera]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

This brings up an interesting question:

Our 2nd event is 2-3 miles away from our working facility. Does that mean every single part in our facility counts to the 45 lb limit, since we have access to it during the competition?

Only if you allow yourselves to access them.
A rule of thumb here might be:
Behave as if you had traveled to the Regional from a thousand miles away.
This is where gracious professionalism comes in to play.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

This is the core of why bringing a practice bot and stripping off parts is illegal.

The rule says: At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

Emphasis mine.

If you can go to your trailer and get a part from a practice bot, that's access. If you have access, or potential access, to more than 45lbs worth of parts you are in violation of the rule.

So you're telling me that 125 needs to make sure we only have 45 lbs of spare parts in our lab for Northeastern because our lab is AT the venue? Yeah lemme get right on NOT doing that.

Of course, I've always felt the 45 lbs is upgrade parts. 1 to 1 replacement parts shouldn't count since they are functionally equivalent to parts you bagged. (This isn't how the rule is, it's just how I think it should be)

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

So you're telling me that 125 needs to make sure we only have 45 lbs of spare parts in our lab for Northeastern because our lab is AT the venue? Yeah lemme get right on NOT doing that.

Of course, I've always felt the 45 lbs is upgrade parts. 1 to 1 replacement parts shouldn't count since they are functionally equivalent to parts you bagged. (This isn't how the rule is, it's just how I think it should be)

That's not what I'm saying. Please don't overreact until you understand what I mean.

I'm saying that you will be under the honor system that you've pre-selected your 45lbs of withholding and won't go to your shop to take advantage of resources and spare parts that other teams don't have access to.

[Michael Hill]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

That's not what I'm saying. Please don't overreact until you understand what I mean.

I'm saying that you will be under the honor system that you've pre-selected your 45lbs of withholding and won't go to your shop to take advantage of resources and spare parts that other teams don't have access to.

If you're not going to say it, then I will.

Spare parts (including fabricated identicals) STILL count against your 45 pound allowance. If you have two robot arms that are identical, one of which is on the bagged robot and another you bring in, the arm you brought in counts against your 45 pounds. If you bring in (or have access to out in your trailer) more than 45 pounds of spare parts (not including things like COTS, raw materials, etc.), you are absolutely in violation of the witholding allowance. Otherwise, there would be no reason to have the witholding allowance rule in the first place. You don't get to have a whole practice robot in your trailer to farm parts from. You have brought ~120 pounds to the event. Even if you only select 45 pounds from it. You still brought your whole practice robot to the competition. You are in violation. Pick the parts that are most likely to break and bring spares of those. Yes, I know many teams violate the rules. So stop it.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

That's not what I'm saying. Please don't overreact until you understand what I mean.

I'm saying that you will be under the honor system that you've pre-selected your 45lbs of withholding and won't go to your shop to take advantage of resources and spare parts that other teams don't have access to.

Except having stuff in a trailer vs in my shop vs in my pit (all of which are at the venue) is, under that interpretation, an irrelevant distinction. If I have 45 lbs of custom fabricated parts preselected does it matter if it is in a box in my trunk, on my practice bot sitting in my trailer, or in my shop on a table? I'd assert that it is a moot point in what state of assembly the parts are in.

So, as long as my parts are preselected (I provide a list and proof that the parts are under 45 lbs) I should be set?



Furthermore, what defines a robot? I can bring in a spare sidecar, PD board, CRIO, and radio and that's not a robot... If they happen to all be zip tied to a piece of lexan for easy carrying? Is that now a robot?

I admit, I'm just being difficult. I have every intention of following the spirit of the rule (don't bring in more than 45 lbs of custom made upgrade parts per event) but I don't see myself locking up parts in my shop to comply with the letter of the rule.

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

So you're telling me that 125 needs to make sure we only have 45 lbs of spare parts in our lab for Northeastern because our lab is AT the venue? Yeah lemme get right on NOT doing that.

Of course, I've always felt the 45 lbs is upgrade parts. 1 to 1 replacement parts shouldn't count since they are functionally equivalent to parts you bagged. (This isn't how the rule is, it's just how I think it should be)

Our week 5 competition venue is only 2-3 miles from our workshop, so we have access to it. Does this mean we either have to A) offload every part except for the ones we withhold to a storage facility miles away, B) lock everything up and give the key to the lead inspector until the regional is over, or C) bag every part that isn't withholding and have a lockup form so we don't have access to it during competition weekend?

At what point do you say a team doesn't have potential access?

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

Yes.

Do all of your competitors have the same ability? Otherwise it gives you an exceedingly unfair advantage. This is also why the rules prohibit working on any robot parts outside of the pit area.

How is it unfair that our facility happens to be within walking/subway distance of the venue? I'm just pointing out a flaw in the wording of this rule.