Were to store practice bot at regional?

[mrnoble]

The easy answer to the problem of having a venue close to or in your fabrication shop: don't use it. Bag and tag and withholding allowance are, until it becomes necessary to have an intervention, on the honor system. Our main venue is less than 2 miles away from our school. If we forgot a tool, we will drive back and get it (and we'll do the same for other teams that don't have this advantage). There is a hardware store nearby; if we need some screws, we'll go get them. But we won't go back to the shop and pull non-COTS parts out as necessary. I recommend everyone take this approach.

"Judging" and "spirit" are loaded words on CD. Usually, when "spirit" is invoked (and when people are criticized for invoking it), we are debating things like inspiration and mentor involvement. This is categorically different: it is the implication and application of a rule that has existed in some variant for many years, and which was reiterated for this year's competition. As such, pointing out that violating a rule is not the way FRC should be played is not the same as criticizing a team for having a culture that falls within the rainbow of styles that teams have.

And in this case, "judging" is not the personal feelings of me or anyone else on CD; it is the ruling of the GDC and the actual judges who, if they knew teams were allowing themselves free access to any part they wanted, would certainly "judge".

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

How is it unfair that our facility happens to be within walking/subway distance of the venue? I'm just pointing out a flaw in the wording of this rule.

I'll give you a hypothetical with some hyperbole.

Team A and Team B build the same robot. Both robots have a critical flaw in them that breaks in their first match on Friday.

Team A is from a city 500 miles away and all of their people are at the event, so they have to build a replacement in the pits with material and spare parts they brought before pits close. They miss all of their matches that day fixing their robot.

Team B's workspace is 3 miles from the venue, so they drive to their shop, revise their CAD model, press go on their cnc machine, and have a spare part in 30 minutes and are able to attend all of their matches that day.

Team B had the coincidental advantage that their build shop was right next to the venue. This is not fair to Team A.

Originally Posted by Michael Hill

If you're not going to say it, then I will.

Spare parts (including fabricated identicals) STILL count against your 45 pound allowance. If you have two robot arms that are identical, one of which is on the bagged robot and another you bring in, the arm you brought in counts against your 45 pounds. If you bring in (or have access to out in your trailer) more than 45 pounds of spare parts (not including things like COTS, raw materials, etc.), you are absolutely in violation of the witholding allowance. Otherwise, there would be no reason to have the witholding allowance rule in the first place. You don't get to have a whole practice robot in your trailer to farm parts from. You have brought ~120 pounds to the event. Even if you only select 45 pounds from it. You still brought your whole practice robot to the competition. You are in violation. Pick the parts that are most likely to break and bring spares of those. Yes, I know many teams violate the rules. So stop it.

I agree entirely.

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

I'll give you a hypothetical with some hyperbole.

Team A and Team B build the same robot. Both robots have a critical flaw in them that breaks in their first match on Friday.

Team A is from a city 500 miles away and all of their people are at the event, so they have to build a replacement in the pits with material and spare parts they brought before pits close. They miss all of their matches that day fixing their robot.

Team B's workspace is 3 miles from the venue, so they drive to their shop, revise their CAD model, press go on their cnc machine, and have a spare part in 30 minutes and are able to attend all of their matches that day.

Team B had the coincidental advantage that their build shop was right next to the venue. This is not fair to Team A.

That makes sense. In fact. it's in the rules that you have to do all fabrication in the pits or machine shop during competition, and I'm not debating that. Just the wording of the rule is:

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

So, being 2-3 miles from the venue means I have access to a static set of Fabricated items that exceeds probably 600lbs. Can we define "having access" to mean "in the venue and the surround parking lot"? Otherwise our team, several other teams, and all teams hosting district events are unintentionally breaking this rule.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

That makes sense. In fact. it's in the rules that you have to do all fabrication in the pits or machine shop during competition, and I'm not debating that. Just the wording of the rule is:

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

So, being 2-3 miles from the venue means I have access to a static set of Fabricated items that exceeds probably 600lbs. Can we define "having access" to mean "in the venue and the surround parking lot"? Otherwise our team, several other teams, and all teams hosting district events are unintentionally breaking this rule.

I think a simpler change would just be that the withheld parts must be brought in with the robot barring extenuating circumstances of "Hey we forgot this part at our shop yesterday, can we bring it in with us today?" granted that part was intended to be brought with the robot initially.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

That makes sense. In fact. it's in the rules that you have to do all fabrication in the pits or machine shop during competition, and I'm not debating that. Just the wording of the rule is:

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

So, being 2-3 miles from the venue means I have access to a static set of Fabricated items that exceeds probably 600lbs. Can we define "having access" to mean "in the venue and the surround parking lot"? Otherwise our team, several other teams, and all teams hosting district events are unintentionally breaking this rule.

In my opinion the spirit of the rule is to artificially limit (i.e. through the honor system) each team to 45lbs of pre-fab stuff that they have selected before they unbag their robot. I don't care if it's at the venue with you, in a trailer in the parking lot, or at your build space down the street. It must be 45lbs of stuff that was selected before you knew what actually broke on your robot.

[Rynocorn]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

That makes sense. In fact. it's in the rules that you have to do all fabrication in the pits or machine shop during competition, and I'm not debating that. Just the wording of the rule is:

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

So, being 2-3 miles from the venue means I have access to a static set of Fabricated items that exceeds probably 600lbs. Can we define "having access" to mean "in the venue and the surround parking lot"? Otherwise our team, several other teams, and all teams hosting district events are unintentionally breaking this rule.

In my opinion, if you do not use these parts and just bring your withholding allowance parts to the regional than you are following the rule. FIRST does not want you to pack up your lab a pnd move it away for the regional (though that's what it seems the rule entails) but as long as you make an effort to actually follow the rules, it's all good. Technically, you still have access to a large set of parts but if you do not go into your lab than it's all good. Just my opinion in what seems to be a huge discussion/debate

[Qbot2640]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 45 lbs.

So, being 2-3 miles from the venue means I have access to a static set of Fabricated items that exceeds probably 600lbs. Can we define "having access" to mean "in the venue and the surround parking lot"? Otherwise our team, several other teams, and all teams hosting district events are unintentionally breaking this rule.

You can allow/disallow yourself access in a situation like this. We will be an hour and a half from our nearest venue, but could still travel back and forth if we allowed ourselves to do so...your shop could be in the next building - but if you honor the access pledge, you are not going to go in to grab parts.

[neshera]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

So you're telling me that 125 needs to make sure we only have 45 lbs of spare parts in our lab for Northeastern because our lab is AT the venue? Yeah lemme get right on NOT doing that.

Of course, I've always felt the 45 lbs is upgrade parts. 1 to 1 replacement parts shouldn't count since they are functionally equivalent to parts you bagged. (This isn't how the rule is, it's just how I think it should be)

1) Seriously? You don't see having that immediate access to all/any of your team's spare parts, COTS or fabricated, constitutes an unfair advantage? What do you think a team competing against you from, say, Mexico would make of this? What about a team that can't afford a big trailer to park in the parking lot? This is EXACTLY why the "45 pound rule" exists. Even in years where lots of robot parts break. Especially in years where lots of robot parts break.

2) 1 to 1 replacement issue: I understand from your post you recognize this is just what you would like, not what the rules currently state. I trust you and your team are professional enough to abide by the rules as they are, not as you think they should be.
But let me tell you why I think the rule should stand: teams with less resources to stockpile spare parts, teams that can't afford to build a second/practice robot, teams that have to travel and ship their parts from great distances - these teams want to compete with you based on your smarts and ingenuity, not on how much money you have or how close you happen to be to a regional venue.

When you explain FRC to someone new, and explain that everyone in the world finds out the game at the exact same time, and has the exact same six weeks to build their robot, and has to stay in the same budget for the robot, and has to repair their robots with what they have on hand at the venue - they get it. They get why FIRST if fair. And they are impressed that we do all of that on an honor system. It's one of the biggest concepts we impress on rookie students and parents. It's part of our culture - our team's culture, and our FIRST culture.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by neshera

1) Seriously? You don't see having that immediate access to all/any of your team's spare parts, COTS or fabricated, constitutes an unfair advantage? What do you think a team competing against you from, say, Mexico would make of this? What about a team that can't afford a big trailer to park in the parking lot? This is EXACTLY why the "45 pound rule" exists. Even in years where lots of robot parts break. Especially in years where lots of robot parts break.

2) 1 to 1 replacement issue: I understand from your post you recognize this is just what you would like, not what the rules currently state. I trust you and your team are professional enough to abide by the rules as they are, not as you think they should be.
But let me tell you why I think the rule should stand: teams with less resources to stockpile spare parts, teams that can't afford to build a second/practice robot, teams that have to travel and ship their parts from great distances - these teams want to compete with you based on your smarts and ingenuity, not on how much money you have or how close you happen to be to a regional venue.

When you explain FRC to someone new, and explain that everyone in the world finds out the game at the exact same time, and has the exact same six weeks to build their robot, and has to stay in the same budget for the robot, and has to repair their robots with what they have on hand at the venue - they get it. They get why FIRST if fair. And they are impressed that we do all of that on an honor system. It's one of the biggest concepts we impress on rookie students and parents. It's part of our culture - our team's culture, and our FIRST culture.

Let me reiterate what I said and hope that you can read it this time.

Fact: We have a lab at Northeastern University
Fact: All of our stuff is there
Fact: There is an event at Northeastern University
Fact: We are competing at that event


Based on the logic presented earlier in this thread it would stand to reason that by the very virtue of these facts 125 is breaking the rules since we have > 45 lbs of fabricated parts at the venue (specifically all of our prototypes, test chassis, old robots, replacement parts, broken parts... heck, I think we have close to 15 lbs in prototype launcher forks alone).

The only solution I could see to this issue (because under that reading of the rules it is an issue and I would, of course, need to rectify it) would be to remove all of the offending parts from my lab. Do you understand why I have an issue with this notion?

This isn't even approaching the issue that our entire machine shop is available to us at the venue which I assume would also fall under your statement of unfair.

I'll leave the exercise of redoing this with our shop 5 minutes across the street from the venue (or 5 miles) as you will have the same issue with fairness. To which I will simply say, "So?". FIRST isn't fair and neither is life. Legal situation - I bring in 30 spare VP versaplanetaries of various configurations because I want to change my intake roller speed. That's likely over $1000 in parts. Nowhere is that on my BOM. But team 5905 that doesn't have a large budget and is 4 students out of a dad's garage can't do it. And the team from Mexico certainly can't, shipping would be silly on that. You gonna tell me I can't do that next? It's the EXACT same situation.



I'm going to ignore the thinly veiled assertion that I am planning on breaking rules.

[kevin.li.rit]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

I bring in 30 spare VP versaplanetaries of various configurations because I want to change my intake roller speed.

Wouldn't the 30 spare gearboxes all count your total robot weight if you intended to use them in different configurations?

[martin417]

Originally Posted by kevin.li.rit

Wouldn't the 30 spare gearboxes all count your total robot weight if you intended to use them in different configurations?

No, they are COTS items.

[kevin.li.rit]

Originally Posted by martin417

No, they are COTS items.

Even if you intended to use the different gearboxes to give your rollers different speeds? Wouldn't this count under the different configuration clause of the robot weight?

[martin417]

Originally Posted by kevin.li.rit

Even if you intended to use the different gearboxes to give your rollers different speeds?

What part of "unlimited raw materials and COTS items" is unclear?

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by kevin.li.rit

Even if you intended to use the different gearboxes to give your rollers different speeds? Wouldn't this count under the different configuration clause of the robot weight?

For the purpose of inspection, yes, these would count towards the robot's weight. The team in question would need to narrow the field of (30) transmissions down to some number that wouldn't increase their machine's weight outside of the 120lb limit.

Now, if they were to test before they were inspected, and narrow (30) gearboxes down to one, there are no problems here.

As far as getting in the door is concerned, since the (30) transmissions would be unmodified COTS components, they're a non-issue, at least when looking at the withholding allowance.

[nixiebunny]

Well, I'm glad I asked. I had no idea that this was such a loaded topic.

Our intent in bringing the practice bot was to harvest COTS parts from it. We brought enough raw materials to fabricate repair parts in the pits, and have done so, rather than use fabricated parts of the practice bot.

Based on the responses here, it sounds like it's more sporting to do the harvesting at home. We'll do that for our next regional.

Thanks for all your input.