Week 2 Analysis

[Rynocorn]

Originally Posted by juchong

Everyone is aware that the pedestal only lights once a referee "completes" a cycle manually, right? To do this they have to select who made what assists, whether there was a truss shot, and where the ball was scored. Once they submit that information to the system, then the pedestal lights up. If they are busy with a penalty, counting down an instance of pinning, etc. then they won't be able to "complete the cycle" as quickly as if they were just keeping track of scores.

I know that people are unhappy about how quickly the pedestal is lighting up, but you also have to understand that it's a completely manual process!

I did not think this was the way it was done... I am pretty sure the refs just plug in the pocessions for each robots in whichever zone and the FMS calculates the points based on the highest number of assist points. Also truss points aren't assessed when the goal is scored but when it goes over the truss. I would also assume that he ref would click the score button and then go back to entering the foul after. Just my knowledge of the system as I think I know it

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Rynocorn

I did not think this was the way it was done... I am pretty sure the refs just plug in the pocessions for each robots in whichever zone and the FMS calculates the points based on the highest number of assist points. Also truss points aren't assessed when the goal is scored but when it goes over the truss. I would also assume that he ref would click the score button and then go back to entering the foul after. Just my knowledge of the system as I think I know it

I'm pretty sure you two are using different words to describe the exact same process.

[juchong]

Originally Posted by bduddy

I'm pretty sure you two are using different words to describe the exact same process.

Basically. What I'm trying to get across is that there isn't really any automated way to light the pedestal. It all comes down to how much the refs are expected to keep track of this year.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Rynocorn

I did not think this was the way it was done... I am pretty sure the refs just plug in the pocessions for each robots in whichever zone and the FMS calculates the points based on the highest number of assist points. Also truss points aren't assessed when the goal is scored but when it goes over the truss. I would also assume that he ref would click the score button and then go back to entering the foul after. Just my knowledge of the system as I think I know it

Sounds like, as countless referees and casual observers have been saying all along ever since they learned how this system was intended to work, we should SPLIT THE SCOREKEEPING AND FOUL KEEPING into separate volunteer processes. Separate everything that isn't required to be tracked as part of the cycle - referees handle that - mainly fouls - these can be entered whenever. Scorekeeper refs focus solely on assists and scores. Truss/Catch can be handled by either - pick your poison - I'd choose scorekeeper refs in order to remain consistent.

So if I'm not mistaken from what I've read, the foul entry screen is on a separate menu page from the scoring menu on the AB PanelView touchscreens? Well bite the bullet, call up Allen-Bradley and buy some more of those suckers, and create separate HMI's for dedicated foul panels. I'm guessing the system can handle additional HMI's (Ethernet based IO??). Map the new HMI foul screen objects (is the HMI panel an RS View app?) to the same master controller IO that currently drives foul calculations. Hide or delete the foul screens from the original touchscreens. Or do the opposite if the foul tracking features need to physically remain where they are - separate the scoring menu into a separate HMI and application.

Provided you speed up the processing of final cycle information with more eyeballs and parallel HMI input, the pedestal and any remaining light up delays introduced by the laggy system can still be ignored. Decouple the pedestal lights from the system and drive them with human operated switches run by dedicated pedestal refs at each end of the field. They can track and signal for any HP early removals.

If these troubles continue...if you CAN'T fix this, because you embedded this inefficient blar too deep in the system to excise, then admit you screwed up, and issue a partial event fee refund to every FRC team for being forced into a flawed competition experience that diverged greatly from the product you originally marketed to teams.

[IndySam]

They key word for me in week 2 refereeing is inconsistency, especially when it comes to G12 and G28. What is a foul in one match isn't a foul in the next, over and over again.

The refs have an impossible job. Way to much to do. For example they have to look away from their area to determine possessions for scoring meanwhile there are infractions happening right in front of them.

Scoring must be taken away from the refs!

[ToddF]

I agree with Travis.

There were good improvements with rule changes from week 1 to 2. The problem with the high goal design was fixed, too. Now we need to address the root causes of overloaded referees. If it's true that the referee software requires paging through menus during matches, that's just crazy. Fix the problem.

Is the fix hard? Do it anyway. The FIRST community is probably the least tolerant of "bugs" in the system of any tech'y enthusiast group. We build robots in six weeks. FIRST has had 1/3 of our build season to fix the software. Get it done.

<Slipped back into last-week-of-build-season mode there for a minute.>

[Rynocorn]

Originally Posted by bduddy

I'm pretty sure you two are using different words to describe the exact same process.

Probably, I just read his as the refs were having to plug everything in after the goal when I was just trying to clarify that they do it all along- pretty much the same.

I think it is easy to see the refs are completely overworked as there are just wayyyy to many aspects of the game to keep track of at a time and such tiny things (like a wheel being over a line) that they have to pay attention to while looking at all the robots on the field and trying to hit an unresponsive/slow tablet. Pretty frustrating stuff

[Nick Lawrence]

Originally Posted by IndySam

<snip>
Scoring must be taken away from the refs!

I disagree - the refs have to make judgement calls on zone possessions.

They just need to split the work further. Or stop being so hard on G40 and move it to a yellow/red card system.

-Nick

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by Nick Lawrence

I disagree - the refs have to make judgement calls on zone possessions.

They just need to split the work further. Or stop being so hard on G40 and move it to a yellow/red card system.

-Nick

Why can't a trained storekeeper do that Nick? Rules of possession are not difficult to understand or enforce. Refs should just be watching for infractions.

[tim-tim]

To clarify, there are different roles for refs depending on the side of the field they are on.

All refs have the ability to assign fouls.

One set of refs looks for crossing the truss/field during auton. The other set of refs is looking for balls placed on the field (pre-game) and then when and where they are scored and HOT or not.

During the match the refs are assigned an alliance to SCORE. They click on the robot #### in the blue box if that team POSSESSED the ball in the blue zone, etc. They then can click the TRUSS and/or CATCH buttons for the given alliance and indicate, by pressing HIGH GOAL or LOW GOAL buttons, when the ball is scored. Then an END CYCLE button appears. I assume this is when the pedestal is lit?

I have not reffed at an event yet, but this is from the ref training manual on the touch screen system. It seems easy enough to understand and follow.

[MrBasse]

Originally Posted by tim-tim

To clarify, there are different roles for refs depending on the side of the field they are on.

All refs have the ability to assign fouls.

One set of refs looks for crossing the truss/field during auton. The other set of refs is looking for balls placed on the field (pre-game) and then when and where they are scored and HOT or not.

During the match the refs are assigned an alliance to SCORE. They click on the robot #### in the blue box if that team POSSESSED the ball in the blue zone, etc. They then can click the TRUSS and/or CATCH buttons for the given alliance and indicate, by pressing HIGH GOAL or LOW GOAL buttons, when the ball is scored. Then an END CYCLE button appears. I assume this is when the pedestal is lit?

I have not reffed at an event yet, but this is from the ref training manual on the touch screen system. It seems easy enough to understand and follow.

Does the manual explain the need for an "end cycle" button after the ref inputs that the ball has been scored? Seems repetitive to me.

[tim-tim]

Originally Posted by MrBasse

Does the manual explain the need for an "end cycle" button after the ref inputs that the ball has been scored? Seems repetitive to me.

Not explicitly.

Some of things mentioned and that I take away from the section is that anything except the "END CYCLE" button can be undone via an UNDO button. I ASSUME the intent was to give the ref a chance to verify the data before hitting END CYCLE (read as: score the points). The other note attached that emphasized is that to be sure the ball is completely through the goal and not going to bounce out before hitting END CYCLE.

[Jared Russell]

Possessing your own ball is a judgement call that affects assists and therefore scoring.

Possessing your opponents' ball is a judgement call that affects fouls.

Therefore your scorekeepers must also be your foul callers. We just need more eyes and/or simplification of their other tasks. Too many assists have been missed this year (to be fair, there are also a lot of cases where teams think they should have gotten the assist, but they never actually drove their robot entirely into a unique zone).

[kborer22]

Originally Posted by ToddF

If it's true that the referee software requires paging through menus during matches, that's just crazy. Fix the problem.

yes it's true. There is a button at the very bottom of the screen titled "Fouls" (or something similar) which toggles you to another screen entirely. You are presented with 4 boxes, 2 red, 2 blue, 1 for tech foul, and 1 for fouls. Each has a simple "+" and "-" button to let you add fouls. When finished you have to click the same button at the bottom which now reads "Match Play" (or "game play").

It's unfortunate because there is likely some type of scoring or assisting going on while you entering those fouls.

I was a ref for a week one event and i know that early on i was delayed 5-10 sec in ending a cycle. When there are 4 robots smashing into each other literally 3 feet from you it's hard to look away. In that instance the team with the ball managed to slip away while i was in the process of calling a tech foul for G28 on another team and put the ball in the low goal. Later on in the day i had a similar scenario and in that case i waited to enter the foul until after the ball had been scored. So referees becoming more comfortable and familiar with how the game is played makes a difference.

[mathking]

As I mentioned to Travis at the competition and have posted elsewhere, the big problem is giving the refs too much to do and dividing their attention. A simple solution is to have 6 scorekeepers, one watching each robot. They simply record possessions and scores. Only one robot to watch. This frees refs to look for and record only fouls.

As for the Q24 match Travis posted, as someone who was there watching for an uninvolved team, the podium stayed unlit for enough time for people in the stands to notice and start commenting.

Side note, thanks for posting the Q5 video Travis. In that match our code had high and low gear mixed up in autonomous, but we had no video of it. I want to use this as a reinforcement reminder about the dangers of not checking EVERYTHING about your autonomous code.