District vs Regional

[Ben Wolsieffer]

Originally Posted by Klamath Mom

Our program went from $9,000 a year total (travel, fees, food, shirts) to over $18,000 this year. I have talked to FIRST headquarters and they call it 'growing pains'. Wonder if FIRST is weeding rural teams out???? Or will corporate teams be the only ones to survive?

The same thing happened to us. We are a small team with relatively few sponsors, but this year we raised the most money we ever have before. We thought we would have more than enough money for the season, but now if we make the cut for district championships (which seems likely) we will be completely broke.

[PVCpirate]

Originally Posted by AustinH

If I remember correctly, the justification I heard for the increased cost ($13,000 vs $9,000) was that *on average* the teams that attend Championships originally were attending at least two regionals. I would love to see the data behind that. 13K is a lot.

Last season, about 29% of regional-only teams attended 2 regionals. Anyway, the argument you just cited is circular logic: Teams that only go to one regional are more likely to be unable to attend CMP if they qualify(I would think). Those teams don't go, and the slots are filled by teams who can go, many of which go to multiple regionals.

[M. Lillis]

So the district model (Base, no 3rd or 4th district events) would cost you $14,000 for the season. $5,000 registration (includes your two qualifying district events), $4,000 DCMP, and $5,000 CMP. If your team, before the district model, attended 2 regionals and CMP a year, switching to the district model saved you $1,000. (5k x 3)

Now, I have no idea what your team's situation is financially or location-wise, but the district model offers more events, thus increasing the odds that one or more will be close to home (no hotels/long bus rides). Maybe I read it wrong, but I cant figure out how switching to the district model doubled your yearly expenses.

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by AustinH

If I remember correctly, the justification I heard for the increased cost ($13,000 vs $9,000) was that *on average* the teams that attend Championships originally were attending at least two regionals. I would love to see the data behind that. 13K is a lot.

I am not sure what you mean by an increased cost?

I guess if you are speaking of going to CMP after attending only one regional the registration cost would be $10,000 total (assuming you are not speaking of rookie teams)

$5000 registration and $5000 for CMP

The cost for attending 2 regionals is $9000 and this is what it costs to do 2 district plays and the District Championship.

Of course if you qualify for CMP at District Championship the amount goes to $14000 with the registration for CMP.

I agree that this is a great deal of money....I just am not sure what you mean by the increased cost?

In Districts we get 2 district events for the price that any other team has to pay for their first Regional event.

I guess I can see how it would cost $9000 to just get to the District CMP where you could qualify for CMP ... and in the past you could qualify at a single Regional event...for $5000

Is this what you mean?

I don't have the data on CMP and the average number of regionals that are attended by the participants... I could not find it here on CD I think it is here somewhere.

I would imagine that the average number is pretty close to 2.... a number of teams do 3 and all District teams do at least 3....to get there...

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by M. Lillis

If your team, before the district model, attended 2 regionals and CMP a year, switching to the district model saved you $1,000. (5k x 3)
.

I think it is the same.... 1st regional is $5000 (non-rookie) and the 2nd is $4000 with CMP being $5000

same $14000

Or did I not pick on an increase in the cost for the 2nd regional this year?

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by PVCpirate

Airlines and hotels can have cancellation fees.

I was addressing the 4-day scramble for a district championship. I really doubt airline flights would enter into that.

School districts can be uncooperative relating to missing school on short notice.

Thus my advice to plan farther in advance, so the notice isn't so short.

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Thus my advice to plan farther in advance, so the notice isn't so short.

Our school doesn't like it when we try to add one more student to our list of kids attending the trip. It would be far worse to ask them to excuse our students' absences and then ask them to not do it after not qualifying.

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell

Our school doesn't like it when we try to add one more student to our list of kids attending the trip. It would be far worse to ask them to excuse our students' absences and then ask them to not do it after not qualifying.

We had to work through this with our school system too... It took awhile and several meetings. It ended up that they would rather we apply early and then cancel rather than applying late.

It did take some meetings and work. You have to start early (like the fall) and ask them how they would want this handled...

Like many schools... it does not fit so nicely into there little way of doing things.
We have found, though, that if you give them time and opportunities... they will come around.

It is really no different than some of the qualifying students do for athletic events....

Do a lot of smiling and nodding and working things out... be patient...
they will come around... if they don't ... move up the chain of command...

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell

Our school doesn't like it when we try to add one more student to our list of kids attending the trip. It would be far worse to ask them to excuse our students' absences and then ask them to not do it after not qualifying.

Somehow I doubt it would be a huge issue if you explain everything to them first.

The other option is to go an volunteer or spectate, even if you don't qualify for DCMP.

[Klamath Mom]

You have not factored in any travel expenses. Our team is located 5+ hours from ANY FIRST event. We don't have an option of picking a closer event. The woes of living in Southern Oregon!

[PVCpirate]

I was referring to minimum registration costs to go to CMP. My championship registration cost was $4000, I realize now it's $5000. So 1 regional+CMP = $5000+$5000=$10000. 2 districts+DCMP+CMP = $5000+$4000+$5000 = $14000. Now, I realize that plenty of teams (671 in 2013) go to multiple regionals, and for them that district scenario is the same or more than they pay in registration fees every year. But that was not the majority: in the same year, 1541 teams only went to 1 regional.

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

It is really no different than some of the qualifying students do for athletic events....

The difference is it happens for sports teams no questions asked. In my experience, if a sports team at a high school qualifies for a higher level of competition, they go. End of story. At my old school, if the soccer coach went to the school board and said that the team qualified for the New England Championship, and needed to miss 2 days of school the next week, the school would get them a bus, excuse the absences, and make sure everyone in the school knew that our team was going to the New England Championship. If our robotics adviser did the same, the absences may or may not have been excused, we wouldn't have had a bus, and everything would have been a hassle. Other places might have it better, but it wasn't "no different" for us.

[M. Lillis]

Originally Posted by PVCpirate

The difference is it happens for sports teams no questions asked. In my experience, if a sports team at a high school qualifies for a higher level of competition, they go. End of story.

You have basically identified one of the stigmas of the public school system (and maybe private, as well). FIRST is all about changing a culture. It will not happen over night, and it will take years of work. I would ask that you convince your administrators to go to your regularly scheduled team meetings, or go to local FIRST events. Allow them to see what your team really does, and the whole "no excused absences, no bus, etc." will gradually change.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by PVCpirate

I was referring to minimum registration costs to go to CMP. My championship registration cost was $4000, I realize now it's $5000. So 1 regional+CMP = $5000+$5000=$10000. 2 districts+DCMP+CMP = $5000+$4000+$5000 = $14000. Now, I realize that plenty of teams (671 in 2013) go to multiple regionals, and for them that district scenario is the same or more than they pay in registration fees every year. But that was not the majority: in the same year, 1541 teams only went to 1 regional.

Are you surprised that going to four events costs more than going to two? The regional model of qualification for championship simply wasn't scalable. A change had to be made eventually, and the model they're changing to allows for more plays for less money. Aside of a few fringe cases, I really don't get the teams that are complaining about cost on this one.

[PVCpirate]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Are you surprised that going to four events costs more than going to two? The regional model of qualification for championship simply wasn't scalable. A change had to be made eventually, and the model they're changing to allows for more plays for less money. Aside of a few fringe cases, I really don't get the teams that are complaining about cost on this one.

I'm not complaining. I simply stated some facts, and was clarifying my post from earlier because I thought some people misunderstood it. I was just trying to highlight the fact that districts are more difficult than the previous system for some teams. I totally agree that they had to make the change, and am totally in favor of it.

[Mr V]

I'll address some of the issues that people have brought up.

FIRST absolutely sells the district system on the premise that it reduces costs. This is somewhat misleading, while it certainly reduces FIRST's costs it does not reduce costs across the board and in some cases it results in increased costs.

For many of the teams in the PNW district that have traditionally qualified for CMP it does not change their registration cost, as many of those teams regularly attended two events in the past, those that qualify via RAS excluded. For many teams that traditionally attended 2 or more events but never or rarely moved on to CMP it reduces their cost or keeps it the same if they move on to DCMP but not CMP. For many other teams it certainly does increase their registration costs to make it to CMP as it goes up from $10K to $14K.

For teams that are in the metropolitan areas and do not move on to DCMP or beyond it usually reduces their travel cost since they can stay at home and if they do travel to one of their events it is usually for fewer nights.

As Bob pointed out with the traditional regional system the RD was expected to raise the funds necessary for paying for the facility, registration fees are not used to cover that expense. FIRST was responsible for the field, trucking it to the event, all consumables for the event, contracting with Show Ready Events for the AV production and other outside vendors for things such as pipe and drape.

With the switch to the District system the district has to purchase the basic field perimeter, take over the cost of transporting the fields, some of the consumables (the carpet) and the AV production. Districts do keep the 3rd event registration fees and FIRST does share a portion of the initial event registration fee with the district.

In the PNW Washington FIRST Robotics decided that the best long term solution was to make a serious one time capital investment in the equipment to run the events rather than rent items or pay an outside contractor for services. This means that WFR made purchases of AV equipment, floor coverings, pipe and drape along with the materials to build road cases to insure that all of those items made it to the event and in good condition. That significant capital investment meant that the costs actually increased over previous years. However the vast majority of that equipment will be able to be used for many years. If WFR is able to continue to raise funds at current levels they may be able to provide grants for travel and/or DCMP registration fees to teams in need in the future. Note just because it is Washington FIRST Robotics does not mean that it will exclude OR teams from any of those funds if they are available in the future. WFR is the organization that administers the PNW FRC district since it was a pre-existing non-profit organization with some of the resources needed to make it happen already in place.

Regarding the timing of DCMP being so close to learning if you qualify to attend or not WFR has already notified teams who have already mathematically secured a position and the vast majority of those teams have already registered for the event. For those "on the bubble" it is not so easy. As Bob mentioned for next season it is a good idea to gain approval from your school ahead of time letting them know that it is not definite, just a possibility. Most school districts would rather have you make the arrangements and then cancel rather than try and rush through the approval process on short notice.

For the PNW District the original hope was to have DCMP in week 6 but scheduling of the events did not support that as the OSU event would only work for them in week 6. Hopefully next season WFR will be able to schedule DCMP for week 6. Long term WFR would like to purchase the equipment necessary to support 3 events per week and hold all district events weeks 1-4 and schedule DCMP week 6 to allow teams more time to prepare for DCMP and CMP. Of course that would require even more volunteers and as it was it was a struggle to insure that all positions were filled for all of the events with only 4 weeks of 2 events per week. However note that unlike some other districts there was no requirement for teams to provide a minimum number of volunteers. That is not to say that teams did not step up to the challenge, just that it was not a requirement and it is hoped that it does not become a requirement.

Concerning my personal opinions of the district system overall I'm quite satisfied with the outcome.

One of the things that rookie teams have said to me in the past is after finishing their first event is that they really wished it would be possible to attend more than one event. Many less than well funded teams have also expressed this. Going to a second event more than doubles what a teams gets out of their competition season and the build season in general as it allows teams to get what I consider the full engineering experience. When the game is released everyone has an idea of how the game will play, while in reality that is just a theory. We also test our robots before we go to the events but do not know how they will really perform on the field. Going to the event is "the real world" test of the 45 day build season. Having every team have a second event allows them to finish the engineering problem and apply the lessons learned at the first event to optimize their solution to better fit "the real world". Without that second chance teams are left wondering "what if?" To fully realize the full engineering experience once all areas are in the district system I'd love to see teams given a week to work on their robot between district events. Of course the risk of that is that by the end of the season we could see a lot of clones of the robots that were most successful in the early weeks.

Two events where teams get a guaranteed 12 matches and have a much higher likelihood of more in the elimination rounds means that most teams will play ~3x as many matches they could if they were only able to make it to one traditional regional. Teams are also more likely to win a judged award at a district event or win more judged awards per season. In short there is a better balance of the "rewards" portion of the season vs the "work" portion of the season which according to many of the people I've talked with increases the students satisfaction.

On the other hand I see a number of downsides but I consider most of them minor in comparison.

1. I don't get to see my friends I've made through FIRST as much or maybe even at all as they were either excluded like those teams from ID, MT, Turkey and Mexico or they simply were attending different events. Hopefully his will change thanks to the standardized district points system that will allow for inter-district play in the hopefully not too distant future.

2. No or limited room for mosh pits, excuse me I mean spirit alleys, where teams can fully express their spirit, enthusiasm and DANCE. Not sure what can be done about this.

3. The disproportionate financial effect on teams where it reduces the cost to some teams, many times those who are the best funded, while increasing the costs on other teams many times on those who are not well funded. Which is the most concerning thing to me. Hopefully the reduced cost to FIRST will eventually be passed on to teams via lower registration costs and the long term lower cost of producing the events on a local level will allow the districts to provide assistance to those teams with the greatest need. It is certainly not the goal of FIRST, Oregon FIRST Robotics or WFR to "weed out" the rural teams. On the contrary each organization's ultimate goal is to have FIRST programs accessible to every student in our country or state(s).