FRC Blog - My Bad Call

[jblay]

This was the right thing to do, I'm glad FIRST and Frank stepped up here. That match shouldn't have been the last for 1323's seniors and now it won't be.

[S.P.A.M.er 17]

I tried to post this in a comment on the blog, but it set of the SPAM filter for some reason. I was planning on posting it here anyway.

"This mistake was caught, and handled in an efficient amount of time. It is a good when people catch their mistakes, and explain their reasoning. Just an explanation would have been a great start to helping the teams involved, but extending the wildcard was a full remedy, and a great decision. The question I now have is; why hasn't something similar happened for the Orlando events? A controversial call was made in Orlando, and it could have affected one team their spot to championship. Why are you picking and choosing certain controversial calls to not only address, but also remedy and not others? Those teams deserve an explanation for what transpired, especially since they have given theirs."

I am happy that 1323 now has a bid for championship, and FIRST definitely went down the right road to fix the situation. But as I said in my comment, why are they picking and choosing what to address? This is HQ's second questionable call of the season, and since they decided to address this one, why shouldn't they have to address the first one?

[pfreivald]

The right call for an unpleasant situation. +1 Frank!

[Foster]

I have a question, what does the form / card look like for timeouts and substitutions?

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by Foster

I have a question, what does the form / card look like for timeouts and substitutions?

You get 2 small slips of paper (like, newspaper coupon sized). One says "BACKUP COUPON", the other says "TIME-OUT COUPON".

The wording might be slightly different, but I just looked at a pair of them on Saturday.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by BigJ

You get 2 small slips of paper (like, newspaper coupon sized). One says "BACKUP COUPON", the other says "TIME-OUT COUPON".

The wording might be slightly different, but I just looked at a pair of them on Saturday.

When I was Field Supervisor @ Boston I custom made my own tickets for the teams. The Time Out Card featured a Clock. The Robot Replacement Card had a Kitsy Cute Robot on it and the Battery Card had a charge logo on it. They were all made separately on card stock and fairly large so they were easy to tell apart.

[Foster]

Thanks for the info on this. I had figured they were easy to confuse, only a one word difference.

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

When I was Field Supervisor @ Boston I custom made my own tickets for the teams. The Time Out Card featured a Clock. The Robot Replacement Card had a Kitsy Cute Robot on it and the Battery Card had a charge logo on it. They were all made separately on card stock and fairly large so they were easy to tell apart.

Sounds like a good idea. Then the ref and the submitter can look at the picture and say "what does that mean to YOU?"

----

I don't have a dog in the fight, but I can see people coming out of the shadows saying "well we had a bad call in Qual 21 and we would have won and that would have moved us up 7 spots in the ranking and the number one seed would have chosen us and we would be going to worlds...."

+1 for Frank, did some research, talked to all the participants and made the best repair he could. Sorry team xyz you missed on getting off the wait list, but who knows, maybe you are now #1 on the 2015 wait list.

[scooty199]

A great response from Frank. Great news for 1323 as well.

Hate to mention that negative side, but Travis does raise a point that selective addressing of issues can lead to a very slippery slope, and sets a bad precedent.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by scooty199

A great response from Frank. Great news for 1323 as well.

Hate to mention that negative side, but Travis does raise a point that selective addressing of issues can lead to a very slippery slope, and sets a bad precedent.

This isn't a new thing though.

All the way back in 2008 the entire finalists alliance at SVR were given Champs spots.

[S.P.A.M.er 17]

Originally Posted by Foster

I don't have a dog in the fight, but I can see people coming out of the shadows saying "well we had a bad call in Qual 21 and we would have won and that would have moved us up 7 spots in the ranking and the number one seed would have chosen us and we would be going to worlds...."

The difference is that in Qual 21, the head ref would have been the one that made the call, the team could have gone to the question box, and things would have been addressed then. When things come straight from HQ (like in Orlando and SVR), it is a little different. You do not get a chance to argue your point; the facts are given to HQ (by someone who might not have the facts completely straight) and then the gavel comes down to give the decision.

HQ calls were made in both situations, and in SVR's case, it was acknowledged as a mistake and remedied (A wildcard handed out, and a change in the backup coupon system). I would like to see something similar happen for Orlando. Not necessarily a wildcard being distributed, but FIRST acknowledging something went wrong, and how the plan to prevent it from happening again (as D.Allerd and Travis said).

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by S.P.A.M.er 17

The difference is that in Qual 21, the head ref would have been the one that made the call, the team could have gone to the question box, and things would have been addressed then. When things come straight from HQ (like in Orlando and SVR), it is a little different. You do not get a chance to argue your point; the facts are given to HQ (by someone who might not have the facts completely straight) and then the gavel comes down to give the decision.

HQ calls were made in both situations, and in SVR's case, it was acknowledged as a mistake and remedied (A wildcard handed out, and a change in the backup coupon system). I would like to see something similar happen for Orlando. Not necessarily a wildcard being distributed, but FIRST acknowledging something went wrong, and how the plan to prevent it from happening again (as D.Allerd and Travis said).

Except nothing went wrong in the Orlando situation on HQ's side. The robot's competed illegally and were, rightfully, red carded. That's the rules from HQ's perspective. Now, as to whether they were told it was ok or not... that's an entirely different issue but is NOT at HQ's level. It's at the level of the LRI.

[TikiTech]

Originally Posted by Foster

Sorry team xyz you missed on getting off the wait list, but who knows, maybe you are now #1 on the 2015 wait list.

I do not think the waitlist is much of an option this year..per Frank

Waitlist

Many FRC teams have already earned their way to the FIRST® Championship in April through their performance at events, and a high percentage of teams have accepted those slots when offered. Just a reminder that we expect very few waitlist slots to be available. The number available may be just a couple, or even zero.

Frank



I am sure this was a difficult but was a well discussed issue at FIRST HQ.

+1 Frank!


Aloha!

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by TikiTech

I do not think the waitlist is much of an option this year..per Frank

While that may be, at the very minimum, it was a waitlist of 1, correct? 1323 did not qualify through normal means, nor were they on the CMP waitlist, as they competed there last year. For them to attend, presuming the same total number of CMP teams, a traditional waitlist team that would have otherwise been given the opportunity to attend the CMP will be required to stay home.

I am not asking for the Wild Card to be removed. I just want people to understand that this tough decision did not come without consequences.

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

This isn't a new thing though.

All the way back in 2008 the entire finalists alliance at SVR were given Champs spots.

Ouch...SVR double whammy.

The Championship still offered an open enrollment phase back then, so perhaps the "stakes" weren't as high.

Originally Posted by pfreivald

While I agree with the latter paragraph, I have to take some exception to the former; policies that remove adjudication (that is, judgment) lead to ridiculous things like second graders getting suspended for chewing their Pop Tarts to look like pistols.

"Zero-tolerance" polices are zero-thought policies specifically because they strip the adjudicating body of the ability to apply judgment and reason to the situation, and that makes them bad policy.

So yes, HQ should do everything they can to minimize all situations wherein such calls have to be made in the first place, but when those transgressions occur, the use of judgment to arrive at the most desirable (or least undesirable) outcome is not a slippery slope, it's necessary for sane and reasonable policy.

My point remains that there are many, many more similar "Pop Tart gun" scenarios that have occurred this season than just this one instance, yet this was the only one HQ decided (for now) to address in this manner. Many more scenarios than the *other* notably public situation in Orlando. Ones you'll never hear about. Ones that no doubt contributed to qualifying match losses, elimination match losses, entry into the elimination rounds, lost alliance captaincy positions, and the like. It's ok for HQ to address the one that "went the most viral", as long as they admit to and do not lose sight of the greater problems at hand, those they've yet to publicly address in the same manner Frank did today.

Originally Posted by Thad House

What I'm more excited about is that ever since Frank took over FRC director, things have become much more open to the community, and instead off all of us just sitting in the dark, we get answers and how they are going to fix things. I suspect that they want to say some things about how this year is going, but I think they are waiting until after competition season is over in order to acknowledge them.

The majority of people concerned/affected by the problems of the Aerial Assist season are still sitting in the dark, in possession of many questions but receiving few, if any answers. They are currently unaware whether Frank and HQ are planning to openly address their concerns. I think a public statement would be both warranted and therapeutic for all concerned.

I caution everyone to not so easily underestimate the collective emotional pressure boiling underneath the surface of this season. If HQ doesn't take suitable steps to see that it is properly relieved, and similar mistakes are made again in subsequent seasons, don't be surprised to see the endgame erupt into something that no one - teams, volunteers, and HQ - wants to see.

I think all people are asking for is a public acknowledgment from HQ along the lines of "We made mistakes in developing and deploying significant game management aspects of the Aerial Assist season, and we fully own them. The responsibility for correcting them is ours. We apologize for the added stress this season has brought to teams and volunteers, and we assure you that we will do everything in our power this offseason to improve our internal quality control measures such that the competitive experience will be better for all involved."

I honestly, truly, do not think that is too much to ask. It would go very far in alleviating the pressure I mentioned above.

[plnyyanks]

Originally Posted by BigJ

You get 2 small slips of paper (like, newspaper coupon sized). One says "BACKUP COUPON", the other says "TIME-OUT COUPON".

The wording might be slightly different, but I just looked at a pair of them on Saturday.

Here's a screencap of the new version (previously, the lines for robot to be replaced an initial weren't there). They look pretty similar, especially pre-revision.

[Reanna]

Originally Posted by Foster

I have a question, what does the form / card look like for timeouts and substitutions?

This is what they looked like at SVR apparently, quoting Chinmay from the top of page 3 of the SVR thread:

Originally Posted by Chinmay

Edit: this is apparently what they look like http://imgur.com/iHFx9gU so not the easiest thing to mess up, but im sure it is hard to keep track of them when robots are having problems and students are stressed.