No Bag and Tag Inspection at Championship

[techtiger1]

You know guys a really easy way to fix this problem is to not have almost 400 teams at Championship to get inspected. FRC needs to look into this.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Drew, I know of 399 teams that will disagree with you.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Drew, I know of 399 teams that will disagree with you.

+1

[Chris Hibner]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Drew, I know of 399 teams that will disagree with you.

Make that 398.

I agree with Drew - teams had to qualify for Championships so they've been through the wringer already. It's not like a team is going to rewire their robot or sharp edges are going to appear all of the sudden.

Perhaps just make it a weigh in and a reduced inspection, or some honor system form that teams can declare if they made any changes that need to be inspected. We already rely on the honor system for bag-and-tag, so it's not that far of a stretch to do the same for championship inspection.

[BigJ]

(to the last 3 posts) I'm pretty sure techtiger1's post is saying that less than 400 teams should be at Champs, not that teams shouldn't get inspected.

"not have 400 teams to get inspected" (the posted text) vs "not have 400 teams get inspected" (the current interpretation in the thread)

[techtiger1]

Originally Posted by BigJ

(to the last 3 posts) I'm pretty sure techtiger1's post is saying that less than 400 teams should be at Champs, not that teams shouldn't get inspected.

"not have 400 teams to get inspected" (the posted text) vs "not have 400 teams get inspected" (the current interpretation in the thread)

Big J this is correct. Chris H I don't think this is a bad idea.

[ChuckDickerson]

Originally Posted by Chris Hibner

Make that 398.

I agree with Drew - teams had to qualify for Championships so they've been through the ringer already. Perhaps just make it a weigh in and a reduced inspection, or some honor system form that teams can declare if they made any changes that need to be inspected. We already rely on the honor system for bag-and-tag, so it's not that far of a stretch to do the same for championship inspection.

Chris, you are making the assumption that all teams are of the caliber of 51, have a firm grasp on the rules, and that every robot rules discrepancy was caught at the regional/district level. If this was the case EVERY Championship inspection should take 15 minutes or less. In my experience, this is rarely the case.

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by Chris Hibner

Make that 398.

I agree with Drew - teams had to qualify for Championships so they've been through the wringer already. It's not like a team is going to rewire their robot or sharp edges are going to appear all of the sudden.

Perhaps just make it a weigh in and a reduced inspection, or some honor system form that teams can declare if they made any changes that need to be inspected. We already rely on the honor system for bag-and-tag, so it's not that far of a stretch to do the same for championship inspection.

beyond the fact that he was suggesting less teams and not less inspections...

As an inspector for a number of years, I can attest to the fact that there is a vast difference in the way teams get inspected from Regional to Regional and District to District. We see changes that need to be made at EVERY event I have ever worked at. At District CMP we still saw a number of robots that were out of compliance.... they had all been through two inspections already and presumably should have been fine.

There is a vast variety in the experience level of volunteer inspectors across the regionals and districts.

I can't see not inspecting at CMP. It could result in teams get DQ'd later in qualifications or eliminations when an inspector finally found a problem.

I recall that during the big Einstein issues we had a few years back a robot was found in the post Einstein dissection that had the radio power supply wired to the wrong power output on the PD board. This was even after CMP inspections.

I know that many teams (like 51 and other experienced teams) probably don't need this rigorous inspection because they have been inspected closely and correctly but there are always some teams that have totally illegal bumpers or other obvious faults.

[Duncan Macdonald]

Everyone at the championship has passed inspection somewhere. I wouldn't advocate removing inspection but would be comfortable playing with and against robots that passed a condensed checklist. There was concern about how taxing the new schedule was on the volunteers is worth considering.

[ChuckDickerson]

Originally Posted by Duncan Macdonald

I don't think anyone can speak for 399 teams.

I believe the point being made was that everyone at the championship has passed inspection somewhere. I wouldn't advocate removing inspection but would be comfortable playing with and against robots that passed a condensed checklist. There was concern about how taxing the new schedule was on the volunteers is worth considering.

Just curious, do you have specific suggestions as to what might be feasible to remove from the inspection checklist? I would be fine with the B.O.M. disappearing but what else might anyone have in mind that would speed the up the inspection process? Everyone wants to get teams as many matches as possible with the least amount of stress placed on the volunteer base.

Every year at Champs I have seen at least one robot over size or over weight. Hopefully all 400 teams will prove me wrong this year.

One would think bumpers should be nailed down by the time you get to Champs but every year I see bumpers still falling off on the field because they were not "securely attached". Inspectors don't want to see teams getting G20 penalties because of something the inspectors could have helped with in the pits.

We have to look out for safety. That's always priority #1 so all those things need to be looked at so this begets a pretty thorough look at all those ball launchers and pneumatic systems. We sure don't want robots catching fire either so we need to trace down those wires and look at wire gauge vs. breaker size. I'll give you wire color.

Every year inspectors still find Globe motors and other illegal motors at Champs. Is everyone OK with that or should we continue to check for illegal motors and legal quantities of legal motors?

Every year I find teams still using a 20A fuse in their compressor Spike. Nope, it's not a rule that you must change it out to a 20A circuit breaker but part of the inspectors job is to help teams out and we try to point out useful stuff like this.

I could go on and on but my point is the inspectors are there to help teams, do our best to flag safety concerns, and to make sure everyone is playing within the rules as best as we can. We all miss things but the more inspections you go through the more stuff we can find and the more we can help. Your team might not need the help but there are plenty there that do and appreciate it. If you build your robot 100% compliant during build season an experienced Championship level inspector should be able to blow through your inspection in almost no time. I can't really think of much on the inspection check list I would like to cut out but if someone want's to come up with a list and valid reasons why those items are not necessary please put it forward and I can guarantee we will at least consider it in the future. Just not this week.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by ChuckDickerson

Just curious, do you have specific suggestions as to what might be feasible to remove from the inspection checklist? I would be fine with the B.O.M. disappearing but what else might anyone have in mind that would speed the up the inspection process? Everyone wants to get teams as many matches as possible with the least amount of stress placed on the volunteer base.

Chuck - A few weeks ago we had a small problem here at the North Star regional you may have heard of - our field didn't show up until 11:50PM Wednesday night! Wednesday evening, not knowing if the field would even show up at all, we came up with a backup plan that involved crossing the street and working everything for 123 teams on the 10,000 Lakes field. That would have meant qualification matches starting at noon on Thursday instead of Friday morning, and a need to get through inspections for all 123 teams in 4 hours with only 23 inspectors. So, Al and I came up with a modified inspection checklist, designed to be completed in 15-20 minutes by a normal regional inspector (aka not an LRI or one of the very experienced inspectors we have at champs - those folks can perform a thorough full inspection in 20 minutes if they have to!).

Essentially, we started by removing everything that wasn't safety based. We then did some simplification of each section. In the end, our entire modified checklist came out to be one side of a single page.

Fortunately, the field showed up, we had an amazing team drive in to help set it up (they weren't even competing that weekend!), and we could keep the entire event on track like normal. That might have been the first time a team not competing at a regional legitimately won an award.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by ChuckDickerson

Just curious, do you have specific suggestions as to what might be feasible to remove from the inspection checklist? I would be fine with the B.O.M. disappearing but what else might anyone have in mind that would speed the up the inspection process? Everyone wants to get teams as many matches as possible with the least amount of stress placed on the volunteer base.

Quite honestly at Championship I would be ok with:

-Robot weight
-Bumper check (weight, height, mounting)
-Frame perimeter check
-Safety checks (check for current through frame, stored energy check, pneumatics power up run through)

Thats it. With the weights being taken care of at the scale, I would estimate an inspector could be in and out of a pit in 5-10 minutes.

-Brando

[rsisk]

Originally Posted by techtiger1

You know guys a really easy way to fix this problem is to not have almost 400 teams at Championship to get inspected. FRC needs to look into this.

what would all the inspectors do?

[ChuckDickerson]

Originally Posted by techtiger1

You know guys a really easy way to fix this problem is to not have almost 400 teams at Championship to get inspected. FRC needs to look into this.

This is a great idea! We can look into this right after every team figures out how to read and follow all the rules and shows up to their regional/district events in 100% compliance with the robot rules. Thus inspectors will be deemed unnecessary. Of course, this would mean no modifications would be allowed and you would have to compete exactly how you unbagged at your first event for the remainder of the season. On the other hand it would also eliminate the need for that withholding allowance too since, well, you would be adding stuff anyway and there wouldn't be inspectors to check it anyway.