From a Newton Volunteer

[Steven Smith]

Why can mentors be drive coaches?"

I'm from a program of mentors who have historically supported the mentor drive coach train of thinking.

If you have a mentor that is so emotionally invested in winning a championship that they disrespect or discourage the students (their team or others), that is a personal problem, not a problem that stems from allowing mentors to be drive coaches. That same personality will do the same thing (albeit less noticeably) in the design meetings, pit area, etc.

In general, the average mentor should have more emotional maturity than the average student, and be able to be a positive voice in the drive team. A good mentor drive coach watches for aggressive behavior from other drive teams or mentors and works to diffuse them. In my short time in FIRST, and as a mentor drive coach this season, I'd say we're at a 90%+ "good mentor coach" level.

Even if it was only high school students, if I have a team of freshman driving, in an alliance with a strong willed student drive coach, who is coached by the same mentor you're trying to weed out... that senior is likely to act like an equal jerk to the mentor coaching them.

So kudos to bringing it up. The scenario needs to be taken with a grain of salt, as in every competition tensions rise and people behave less than perfectly. However, this behavior affects everyone differently, and we need to be sensitive to the fact that as important as that qualification match may seem, the way to get the rookie team to give you their auton ball isn't to be a bully. Whatever the outcome of the match, acting like a jerk to get a win will never pay off in the long run.

[JesseK]

As the drive coach, I try to be clear with other teams: I'm not yelling, I'm articulating with emphasis. I mix in plenty of encouragement before and after, even if we get an unexpected loss.

The worst is when the drive coach next to you is freaking out one of your drivers because the other coach is freaking out at his own drivers.

[popnbrown]

Originally Posted by JesseK

S
The worst is when the drive coach next to you is freaking out one of your drivers because the other coach is freaking out at his own drivers.

^ This. For my really young team, this was extremely frightening. We were on the sidelines watching and our driver said "I really hope we don't have a match with that team, the coach scares me".

[Jon K.]

As someone with a pretty unique perspective, there is a lot I want to say on this matter, but being on mobile, it will take far too long. As many have said, I feel mentor coaches should be removed from all of the programs. Often times the mentors do bully the students, even if unintentionally. I have been a student coach (2005) and feel students should be the coaches. I have had other adult coaches yell at my students before. I was the alliance captain. I regretted choosing them after that. The past 3 years, I have also reffed. This is the first year with this much yelling and banging, mostly because of the pedestals. I would also like to point out, that many times refs didn't score a cycle because the ball may not have been fully scored, not always the case but it happened. There was also delays, and dead ball problems. Referees were asked to do more this year than ever before, and it sometimes had negative impacts, but the level of yelling was a bit much.

As I have mentioned to others, and others here on Delphi, please volunteer. Especially if you think you can do so much better of a job. I would love for many of the referee haters this year to go pick up a tablet at an off season and then rethink what they were talking about. Overall, remember that these people are all volunteers trying to make your event better, and your experience a great one!

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by Jon K.

As someone with a pretty unique perspective, there is a lot I want to say on this matter, but being on mobile, it will take far too long. As many have said, I feel mentor coaches should be removed from all of the programs.

As a mentor coach (and former driver), I strongly disagree. At 4464, we've decided on mentor coaching precisely to lessen the stress on the students; if a match goes poorly, it's the coach who takes the criticism, not the drivers. We do not feel that it is best to have a student in that position.

[Tungrus]

G136 & G137 will be introduced in 2015

G136: Technical fould for yelling or showing disrespect to Field Reset Crew.

G137: All team members are expected follow gracious professionalism, mentors and other adults from a team must exemplify gracious professionalism. If they don't set an example to students from their own team or alliance or opponent teams, they will be escorted out of the arena immediately and barred from entering FIRST competition arenas for 3 years.

[RoboMom]

Originally Posted by MysterE

I was also saddened by the actions of some coaches - especially adults - who felt that they had a right to yell at their drive-team and other drive-teams. I saw clear examples of bullying that left me speechless and saddened. I saw rookie teams treated horribly and watched FIRSTers throw temper tantrums. I even heard coaches cursing out other teams - adults and students alike.

The Youth Protection Program (going live May 1) includes a code of conduct. Bullying will not be tolerated.

http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/youth-protection-program

[tcjinaz]

Originally Posted by RoboMom

The Youth Protection Program (going live May 1) includes a code of conduct. Bullying will not be tolerated.

http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/youth-protection-program

I was wondering what happened to that. Staff changes and no communications since September or so made me think it was gone.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by tcjinaz

I was wondering what happened to that. Staff changes and no communications since September or so made me think it was gone.

I believe a few emails have been sent out from the desk of our FIRST president, on top of there being multiple seminars at championships this year and the man in the (theoretical) big chair himself, Don Bossi.

[robobandmom]

I'm just a FIRST fan/sponsor this year since my kids that were in FRC have moved on and my mentor husband has had to take a break from FIRST due to work requirements.

I was at a regional event this year and saw a mentor coach who appeared very mad, and was yelling/shouting and actually banging on the driver's station "glass" during a match. I was shocked and saddened.

I have attended 12 official FIRST events in the last few years and probably 6 off season events, and have NEVER seen anything like it. The team we were a part of was pretty set on student coaches; the mentors didn't want to take a drive team spot away from a kid that had poured his/her heart and soul into the team. That decision served this team well, but I realize each team is free to choose what works for them.

I do not know the circumstances behind this mentor/coach's actions, but unless he was fearful for someone's safety, (which didn't appear to be the case,) shouting and banging on the driver's station glass should get you removed from the event, and maybe even from FIRST all together.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by robobandmom

I'm just a FIRST fan/sponsor this year since my kids that were in FRC have moved on and my mentor husband has had to take a break from FIRST due to work requirements.

I was at a regional event this year and saw a mentor coach who appeared very mad, and was yelling/shouting and actually banging on the driver's station "glass" during a match. I was shocked and saddened.

I have attended 12 official FIRST events in the last few years and probably 6 off season events, and have NEVER seen anything like it. The team we were a part of was pretty set on student coaches; the mentors didn't want to take a drive team spot away from a kid that had poured his/her heart and soul into the team. That decision served this team well, but I realize each team is free to choose what works for them.

I do not know the circumstances behind this mentor/coach's actions, but unless he was fearful for someone's safety, (which didn't appear to be the case,) shouting and banging on the driver's station glass should get you removed from the event, and maybe even from FIRST all together.

For what it's worth, banging on the glass was actually a suggested method of getting the referees' attention during matches in few specific instances. I did not see exaclty what happened in your experience but it might have been for that.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by robobandmom

I do not know the circumstances behind this mentor/coach's actions, but unless he was fearful for someone's safety, (which didn't appear to be the case,) shouting and banging on the driver's station glass should get you removed from the event, and maybe even from FIRST all together.

Again if it was a dead ball or a unlit pedestal it seems pretty reasonable. Again no reason to curse or be disrespectful but unless I have some other way of telling the head ref that we need a new cycle banging on the glass and shouting was the only real option this year. Refs have even said to do that at driver's meetings during the season. I'm not defending this action because I don't know the details but again things may seem a lot different from the stands then they do on the field. The volunteers are doing their best but sometimes they need a little help to get a faster cycle, it's often not meant to be mean. I have a lot of friends that ref this game and it's incredibly hard, if I was a ref, I would want to teams to help me get them the most efficient matches we could, that includes banging on the polycarb and shouting if it is needed.

I'm a VEX ref and I have students and mentors yell at me to count pinning and other things, sometimes they are right and I'm thankful because the other option is I miss a call which I never want to do. Sometimes they are wrong and I politely tell them that's it's not pinning. Rarely do they ever say anything offensive.

[bduddy]

As much as I agree with your post in general, referees do need to be informed when the pedestal does not promptly light up, and saying this politely at a normal voice level probably will not get the message across. I say this having refereed myself. Of course, context is everything.

The bullying of any teams, especially rookie teams, is inexcusable. "Stress" and "competitiveness" and whatever other stupid excuses people come up with are irrelevant. I'd like to see the harshest penalties applied to teams that do this, not teams that fail to get their inspection forms signed off by all the right people.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by MysterE

#1 - Screaming at the pedestal does not make it light up.
#2 - Screaming at the referee closest to your side of the field does not make the pedestal light up.
#3 - Screaming at the ball handlers on your side of the field does not make the pedestal light up.
#4 - Screaming at the human player from the other team on your alliance does not make the pedestal light up.

I want to start out this response by saying that #2 isn't true. The referees are the people that determine when a cycle ends. Letting a referee know that the cycle should have ended by now is literally the only thing you can do to get a pedestal lit up when you need it. Maybe it's not the correct referee, but that referee should be able to signal to another that hey, the cycle didn't end.

I was also saddened by the actions of some coaches - especially adults - who felt that they had a right to yell at their drive-team and other drive-teams. I saw clear examples of bullying that left me speechless and saddened. I saw rookie teams treated horribly and watched FIRSTers throw temper tantrums. I even heard coaches cursing out other teams - adults and students alike.

I am not going to sit here and say this isn't a real problem. It definitely happens. I do wish to add though that yelling is going to happen behind the glass no matter what. The lexan shield dampens noise so much, and you need to get attention so quickly, that projecting and raising your voice is the only way to accomplish this. I would not be so quick to interpret any "yelling" as badgering, bullying, or otherwise negative. Often times it is just about trying to get the attention of your alliance as quickly as possible to communicate information as quickly as possible.

I would also like to add that coaches have the right to interact with their own drive team however they want. It's up to the team how their drive coach driver dynamic works. The only place you can judge is in how drive teams interact with each other. If a drive team has practiced and agreed upon having a coach yell during matches, it's not your place to decide that the *internal* communication of that team is inappropriate. Inter-team interaction is a different ballgame though.

To those I say these simple words: Grow up. While I may be preaching to the choir here on CD, there is never any excuse to yell at anyone while on a FIRST field. I don't care if a ref missed a call or if the Human Player misses the pedestal light for a fraction of a second. I don't care if you lose due to someone else's mistake. You do not have the right to act like a jerk.

You're right in that there's no excuse to be a jerk on a FIRST field. I just have to ask you to put yourself in the shoes of a team, competing to win the World Championship, whose pedestal hasn't lit up. You've worked for months and put your heart and soul into your robot and team, and now you might lose your chance at glory because of a field problem. The first thing you can think to do is to get the attention of a ref. You project loudly and attempt to communicate to the ref your problem with the pedestal. This may be loud. I don't think this action is inherently unreasonable.

That is not to say there haven't been drive teams and coaches that were unreasonable - absolutely there were. All I'm trying to say is that every instance of a coach trying to get the attention of a referee using a loud voice isn't inherently wrong and is totally understandable in the intensity of the moment.

I don't mean to minimize your message, but I just want to say that there's a fine line here that people can be on the right side of.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by MysterE

#1 - Screaming at the pedestal does not make it light up.
#2 - Screaming at the referee closest to your side of the field does not make the pedestal light up.
#3 - Screaming at the ball handlers on your side of the field does not make the pedestal light up.
#4 - Screaming at the human player from the other team on your alliance does not make the pedestal light up.

I will preface my response by saying that the volunteer staff on newton was one of the best that I have ever interacted with at an FRC event. The FTA was simply Amazing at his job, and understanding in ways that I don't know if I have the words to explain. The field reset volunteers I interacted with (usually those on the field) were all amazing and seemed to say the right thing at just the right time before or after a tough match, which I am extremely grateful for, and from what I can remember, other than one incident, I didn't see any issues with the pedestals, or the balls being cycled into play. The queuing staff, especially the lead on the blue side was simply amazing, and had the patience of saints.

With that being said, I believe that we were guilty of yelling at the pedestal, in the direction of the referees, in at least one instance, specially in our second (?) semi final match, where 971 cleared a missed auto ball through the low goal, but the ball just sat at the goals exit without being removed.... No one seemed to notice it, and our pedestal did not light, at which point we did everything in our power to get someone's attention. Thankfully the FTA walked into the driver's station and said very calmly "stop, just stop. Take as much time as you need to reset your robots, this is a field fault." I have never seen someone so calmly diffuse a situation like that in my 9 years of FRC, and am still in awe. In this case, making those on the field aware of the issue may have saved us a semi-final exit, or a least a full replay.

With that being said, if we were one of the offending teams (I know we were in the incident above) then I sincerely apologize. Our intent is not to belittle anyone's efforts through yelling or talking at a high volume, but in the heat of the moment, when a missed ball could be the difference between ending a season and not, mistakes are made.