9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?

[daliberator]

Hey guys,
I was wondering if any of you have ever been in the position where your team placed 9th in quals and didn't get picked for elims?

This year at the MN state championships, we seeded 5th (With the top 4 teams being alliance captains) and were almost certain we would go on, but to our surprise, we didn't. Our drive team was absolutely stellar the whole time, which further confused us. I know we didn't have our full scouting team so we didn't go around and sell ourselves to the top teams, but even so, I would've thought our performance would've been enough.

I'm not mad about it, per se, more curious if you guys have had experiences similar to this.

Also, congrats to the winners of the MN State Championship! I can't recall team #'s atm, but it was a great event all aroun and you all deserved the win.

P.S. Huge shoutout to 2052 Knightkrawlers! You guys were so awesome at 10,000 Lakes, Champs, and MHSL! One of our mentors is an alum of yours and he has done so much for our team and really is one of the main reasons we got as far as we did this year.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Yeah... 2012 at CMP. Seeded 9th did not play in the afternoon (79)

[jijiglobe]

To seed 9th and not make elims would also imply no interpicking amongst alliance captains. It happens but at most competitions at least one interpick occurs. That must be a really dissapointing experience T_T

[OZ_341]

2001 at Champs. (err...Nationals)

We were in the top 8 for most of the competition, then lost one match, fell to 10th. Did not get selected.

[Boe]

I just want to say that you guys did amazing at state and built a great bot that honestly more teams should have built something similar to.

I was the captain out on the field and made the call for the first alliance to pick 4778. You guys were next on our list but ultimately we went with stormbots because they had a consistent hot high goal auton and could truss or pass back to the hp depending on what our alliance needed.

[Jon Stratis]

I've seen it happen before, and I've seen teams that I've been sure would be playing sitting in the stands during elims. Scouting is a difficult task for everyone - you're attempting to gather imperfect information in order to make a decision that ultimately affects your ability to win the competition. Even the best scouting systems out there aren't perfect.

The State Championship this past weekend saw an incredibly even field during qualifications. From my view watching most of the matches, there weren't any robots that really stood out above the others, and there weren't any that were bad. Anyone could have been in any alliance during elims... at that point the scouters were making decisions based on very small differences.

Additionally, this game presents an interesting difference from previous games. Previously, you could more or less figure out who would be picked based on a simple point differential - each alliance would take the first available team who can either score the most points or prevent the other alliance from scoring the most. This year, there was a lot more strategy involved, looking for robots who could fill specific roles - in bounder, trusser, assister, scorer. It didn't pay to get two robots that were the best in one of those roles.

[Nick Lawrence]

One of the most famous ones I remember is 610 at FLR in 2009.

They were seeded 9th, and declined an invitation from an alliance. None of the top 8 picked each other after that, leaving 610 to sit out on Saturday afternoon.

Ouch.

-Nick

[TedG]

Originally Posted by Nick Lawrence

One of the most famous ones I remember is 610 at FLR in 2009.

They were seeded 9th, and declined an invitation from an alliance. None of the top 8 picked each other after that, leaving 610 to sit out on Saturday afternoon.

Ouch.

-Nick

I don't know what the rules were in 2009, but for atleast the last 4 years, if you are outside the top 8 seeded teams and decline an invitation, you're done anyway.

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by TedG

I don't know what the rules were in 2009, but for atleast the last 4 years, if you are outside the top 8 seeded teams and decline an invitation, you're done anyway.

Not if you get bumped into the top 8 by in-picking. It only prevents you from being picked, not picking.

Now I'm curious if a team in the top 8 or gets bumped into the top 8 can decline an alliance captain spot on the basis of a non-functioning robot (a reason you'd decline an invitation from outside the top 8 most of the time).

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by BigJ

Not if you get bumped into the top 8 by in-picking. It only prevents you from being picked, not picking.

Now I'm curious if a team in the top 8 or gets bumped into the top 8 can decline an alliance captain spot on the basis of a non-functioning robot (a reason you'd decline an invitation from outside the top 8 most of the time).

In 2011 at West Michigan, 2153 declined their bumped-up invitation to be #8 captain, IIRC, for traveling-home reasons. So, it's happened.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by BigJ

Now I'm curious if a team in the top 8 or gets bumped into the top 8 can decline an alliance captain spot on the basis of a non-functioning robot (a reason you'd decline an invitation from outside the top 8 most of the time).

Yes, it happened last year in Milwaukee. More Robotics broke and were asked to join the alliance. In one of the best declines I ever heard, the team rep explained the robot had a fault that could not be corrected in time and offered all of their scouting data to the alliance that asked them. I am very happy to know them and believe them to be a World Class Team for showing the ultimate in GP.

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Yes, it happened last year in Milwaukee. More Robotics broke and were asked to join the alliance. In one of the best declines I ever heard, the team rep explained the robot had a fault that could not be corrected in time and offered all of their scouting data to the alliance that asked them. I am very happy to know them and believe them to be a World Class Team for showing the ultimate in GP.

Oh yeah, I remember that.

I more meant like, say, 1675 is ranked 6th at a regional but knows their robot broke in the last match and is "unfixable" -- are they forced to remain an alliance captain and leave 2 unwitting alliance members to a backup bot? Or can they "graciously" step out of contention and have each other team move up a seed?

[Jon Stratis]

I can't find anything in the rules that lays out a process for an alliance captain to decline, BigJ. But one sure way to do it is to not be present for alliance selection!

A year ago at North Star I had a team pack up their pit and start to haul stuff out before alliance selection. One of my inspectors caught them when they were asking for the garage door to be opened so they could leave, and pulled me in to talk with them. The team was very upfront and had obviously spent some time thinking things through. They told me they were well aware of their robot's capabilities and they were positive they weren't going to be picked. They wanted to load up the truck and get started on the several hour drive home they had.

After a bit of back and forth, I asked them what seed they were. After all, a team seeded 60th who is positive they won't be picked and wants to leave before alliance selection could be seen as a gracious decline. But that's not where they were seeded. No, they were the 9th seed. Once I heard that, I ordered them back to their pit. I explained that I've seen enough alliance selection and enough matches to know that XXXX was going to pick YYYY, and they were going to be an alliance captain. Turns out, they captained the 7th place alliance.

I imagine that, if the team really had packed up and left, everyone would have shifted up and they essentially would have been skipped.

[Max Boord]

I remember at one of the east coast events teams in the top 8 were asked if they wanted to become an alliance captain.

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

I can't find anything in the rules that lays out a process for an alliance captain to decline, BigJ. But one sure way to do it is to not be present for alliance selection!

A year ago at North Star I had a team pack up their pit and start to haul stuff out before alliance selection. One of my inspectors caught them when they were asking for the garage door to be opened so they could leave, and pulled me in to talk with them. The team was very upfront and had obviously spent some time thinking things through. They told me they were well aware of their robot's capabilities and they were positive they weren't going to be picked. They wanted to load up the truck and get started on the several hour drive home they had.

After a bit of back and forth, I asked them what seed they were. After all, a team seeded 60th who is positive they won't be picked and wants to leave before alliance selection could be seen as a gracious decline. But that's not where they were seeded. No, they were the 9th seed. Once I heard that, I ordered them back to their pit. I explained that I've seen enough alliance selection and enough matches to know that XXXX was going to pick YYYY, and they were going to be an alliance captain. Turns out, they captained the 7th place alliance.

I imagine that, if the team really had packed up and left, everyone would have shifted up and they essentially would have been skipped.

+1 to ordering them back to be captain . How did they do in elims?