LAS VEGAS REGIONAL... terminated?

[Ether]

FWIW. All to same scale.

[Scott_4140]

The engineering community in Las Vegas is smaller than most cities its size. That's not the industry that Las Vegas grew up around. That would be the gambling and entertainment industry. Unfortunately, as pointed out by another post, their interests and therefore support, doesn't align well with FIRST.

There is however a companion industry that could line up with FIRST. Conventions! Conventions are a huge draw for the hotels and casinos in Las Vegas. Many of these conventions are technology oriented. The Consumer Electronics Show (CES) being one of the most well know.

The promoters of these technology driven conventions have a vested interest in furthering the industries they support. I would think a case could be made to them that sponsorship of an FRC Regional Completion aligns with their interests and could be promoted to their attending companies.

[JB987]

Exterior image of Las Vegas High School makes it look big but looks can be deceiving. Yes the field could fit in the main gym but the aux gym can only handle 30 pits max (with no room for even a quarter practice field. Additional halls or cafeteria on other side of outside multi-level quad area where you might fit more pits require elements exposed trip across the quad where ramps are...yes it does rain in Vegas (only on event days of course ). Remember, we were told we have to plan to have at least 40 teams to keep the regional (in addition to increased funds).

School pictured is one of almost 20 clones and same as Cimarron-Memorial HS, home of my High Rollers. Believe me we have pitched the idea of the event in our own school. Costs for usage and generators needed add up to venue costs at current Cashman Event Center, many times bigger. All other schools smaller or similar size with same usage constraints. I wonder, by the way, how many out of state teams (like many teams from across the country or ocean who have competed here) would come all this way to compete in a gym? As stated, however, the main concern is difficulties garnering financial support...and there are strong efforts in the works to ensure sufficient funding for the event.

One sad irony of this that FIRST appears comfortable with doing away with an event that has cost them $20-30k yet netted them at least $160k in mostly all second/third event registrations...

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

I think the LV area has upwards of 2 million residents and about forty high schools. If our one high school in a community of about 8 thousand can host a district competition, surely one (or more) of those LV high schools can do it.

Venue rental is not usually the largest cost difference between regionals and district competitions. Professional event management and A/V services make regionals much more expensive to operate than districts.

I served on a regional planning committee for several years, in St. Louis, before moving to Michigan. The regional I helped to plan and run had a budget more than 20 times what my district competition runs on today.

Of course this is not easy -- it takes a small army of dedicated volunteers and some of the best organizers in the FRC community. But surely LV is up to that kind of challenge.

The LVRPC (which has a strong 987 presence on it) consistently puts on one of the best run regionals in FIRST. If Joe is saying they can't do it, then I believe that they have turned over the rocks required to make that statement with confidence.

254 has greatly enjoyed our three trips to the Las Vegas Regional. We probably would have made Las Vegas our default second regional, if it did not begin to overlap SVR the last few years. It has some of the friendliest event staff, is very smoothly run, and is always a lot of fun for the teams. The Thomas and Mack Center was a very good venue and from what I've heard from 987 the new convention center is even better.

Like Pat, I too wonder why exactly FIRST can't continue to contribute 0.125% of their $24,000,000 war chest to sustain one of the best events in their program.

As others have mentioned, this will have a waterfall effect on surrounding areas. CA is already totally saturated and can barely support the number of plays required for local teams. Some local teams who were using LV as a second play are now going to be looking for slots that don't exist in CA. Yeah, we're adding the new Ventura regional, but doing so is just keeping the dam from overflowing...it's not really expanding capacity, especially when you look at growth in rookie teams.

254 certainly hopes that Las Vegas will continue to have a regional and looks forward to an opportunity to attend again.

[Jon Jack]

Originally Posted by Cory

Some local teams who were using LV as a second play are now going to be looking for slots that don't exist in CA. Yeah, we're adding the new Ventura regional, but doing so is just keeping the dam from overflowing...it's not really expanding capacity, especially when you look at growth in rookie teams.

This.

Adding Ventura and losing Vegas would give western teams the same number of regionals as 2014, but the demand will be higher. Even with 6 regionals it's very difficult for a California team to get a second in-state play. Before this year, our out of state options were:

-Hawaii/Colorado/Utah, which is difficult for most CA teams to pull off financially.
-Arizona, which usually fills very early in registration since it's a smaller event and is filled by Arizona and New Mexico teams.
-Las Vegas which is within driving distance for almost every CA team.
-Oregon/Washington events, which was popular with teams from northern California.

With the formation of the PNW region, we lost the Oregon/Washing events, which made Vegas the best out of state option for many California teams (hence why so many California teams were competing in Vegas this year).

If Vegas closes, that would force most California teams to have to find two events in a state which hasn't been able to support two events for its own teams since the 2010 season. In my opinion, this would be a huge step backwards for FRC.

[scca229]

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux

If LVR needs a year to recoup funds, couldn't they run a more district-sized event and make back their debts? I feel like teams would accept this to keep the competition and FIRST would do it to break even. Lose the flashy A/V & venue this next year and bring it back after that.

Joe would have to chime in here, but I *think* the "flashy A/V" is actually donated...

Am I right in thinking that Joe?

Also, those saying that the AZ Regional is "smaller" need to look at the registration numbers...both events were set at 51 this year (AZ had 2 no shows, I think LV had 1). They are both the same size registration wise, but LV is a much larger venue. Really curious now what AZ's 2nd regional venue size will be next year since it is at a university.

I am so hoping this doesn't come to pass as I love my mini-vacation in LV even though it is the most exhausting fun I've ever had being the FTAA

Nate
LVR FTAA 2013-2014, AZR FTAA 2013, AZR Robot inspector 2014

[tcjinaz]

Originally Posted by scca229

Joe would have to chime in here, but I *think* the "flashy A/V" is actually donated...

Am I right in thinking that Joe?

Also, those saying that the AZ Regional is "smaller" need to look at the registration numbers...both events were set at 51 this year (AZ had 2 no shows, I think LV had 1). They are both the same size registration wise, but LV is a much larger venue. Really curious now what AZ's 2nd regional venue size will be next year since it is at a university.

I am so hoping this doesn't come to pass as I love my mini-vacation in LV even though it is the most exhausting fun I've ever had being the FTAA

Nate
LVR FTAA 2013-2014, AZR FTAA 2013, AZR Robot inspector 2014

The quick glance at Grand Canyon University's athletics facilities show this: http://www.gculopes.com/sports/2010/...um.aspx?&tab=4
and this:
http://www.gculopes.com/sports/2012/3/5/GCU.aspx?&tab=4

Which probably add up to more space than the AZ Regional gets at Hamilton High School, if FIRST gets all of it.

So you might lose a vacation in Sin City, but gain one in N Phoenix

[OZ_341]

I hope everything works out for the LV Regional.
Its a great regional, run by great people.

* Teams from around the region and around the world.
* High competitive level.
* There are a ton of inexpensive and wholesome activities for kids to do after competition ends. (Red Rock Canyon, Circus Circus, Outdoor Shows, Tiger Habitat....)
* Hotels are very inexpensive
* High Quality volunteer Staff

I really hope that FIRST can look past the financial bumps and supports this regional which serves so many local teams.

If there is anything that 341 can do to support you, please let us know.

[Lil' Lavery]

While it may lose some of the travel appeal, has serious consideration been given to alternative sites in Nevada that may end up being cheaper or have more local support?

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

While it may lose some of the travel appeal, has serious consideration been given to alternative sites in Nevada that may end up being cheaper or have more local support?

I'm not sure where else you could do it besides Reno, which is also big on casinos and entertainment.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Pat Fairbank

I'm not an accountant, but a quick look at FIRST's financials seem to indicate that the organization is operating at a $2M yearly surplus and is sitting on top of nearly $24M in cash and short-term investments.

Given that for the parent organization funding is apparently not in short supply, is it unreasonable of me to ask why regionals experiencing financial hardship can't retain a larger portion of their own registration fees?

It is easy to openly question the organization why it isn't spending money on things (for me, it's providing sweeping changes to the way potential developers can/can't interact with data through the FMS, for example), but I think even directly petitioning the director to know exactly why FIRST both needs $24M cash on hand but can't afford to float a regional in a high potential area for a little bit longer is probably one of the most worthwhile questions we can ask FIRST.

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

I think someone more eloquent than me should use this as a chance to ask a good Ask Frank Friday question.

FIRST is pushing transparency, I'd love to know more about where the money goes, how it's used, etc...

It'd be interesting to know their logic behind this decision when from our point of view the regional is very profitable for FIRST.

It's kind of crazy that I've been doing this forever and when a parent asks me where all the registration fees go if they don't go to the events, I can't really give them a great answer other than, "FIRST is big.... I'm sure they have a lot of expenses...?"

I think someone like you with years under your belt playing at a high enough level your team pays out more registration fees than an average team (2 regionals and regular championship appearances) is pretty well suited to ask this question. I've been under the impression that registration fees go directly to making new fields and hiring the crew that produces the event. I know we've been adding regionals lately with a higher frequency, but a majority of the fields are supposed to be re-used year to year (which helps districts even though they're paying registration fees for fields they'll personally never play on, as far as I know). I also thought that FRC itself was running at a loss for the longest time, but apparently that tide has shifted backwards...

For ideas on how to keep LVR afloat, I wonder if FRC would be appeased if they moved the venue out of the LVCC and into a team's high school, or if the teams attending the event were subjected to an additional fee (as ludicrous as it sounds).

[EricH]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

For ideas on how to keep LVR afloat, I wonder if FRC would be appeased if they moved the venue out of the LVCC and into a team's high school, or if the teams attending the event were subjected to an additional fee (as ludicrous as it sounds).

See the post above ya. They don't have one that's big enough.

Something that most folks east of the Rockies don't necessarily understand is that many of the high schools on the west coast (Vegas included) don't exactly have the largest gyms or other indoor athletic facilities. If I were told "come up with a list of high schools in your area (L.A.) that could host a 40-team event for three days plus setup", I'd be hard-pressed. I might be able to come up with 4-5, but I'd really have to think about it to get more. The reason: We don't have "weather". We have "climate" with a side of "mild rainy season".

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by EricH

See the post above ya. They don't have one that's big enough.

Something that most folks east of the Rockies don't necessarily understand is that many of the high schools on the west coast (Vegas included) don't exactly have the largest gyms or other indoor athletic facilities. If I were told "come up with a list of high schools in your area (L.A.) that could host a 40-team event for three days plus setup", I'd be hard-pressed. I might be able to come up with 4-5, but I'd really have to think about it to get more. The reason: We don't have "weather". We have "climate" with a side of "mild rainy season".

AKA, people actually want to live out here

[waialua359]

A lot of the concerns I've seen here are about doing more than just 1 event. The FRC experience used to be where MOST teams did just 1 event. As an outsider to district events, it has influenced us to participating in more events and wanting a State (district) Championship much like others that do a week 7 event. This in addition to doing more events at a fraction of the reg cost to participate in a traditional regional.

With respect to the financial reasons behind closing LVR, I would guess that the LVR situation is independent of what is happening in surrounding states such as CA and AZ. Other than the teams in Nevada, if LVR provided an additional event for neighboring teams, I doubt that its enough of a reason for FIRST to say there is a shortage of regionals for teams to participate in, generally speaking.

However, if the reason that FIRST is pulling the plug on LVR is because they cant raise enough money within their own area, to what extent does "pooling" all of the reg fees from teams, should it be used to cover the shortfall? FIRST uses reg fees towards growth, which isnt necessarily within our own respective areas any given year. There is no doubt that LVR is a regional that many teams want to attend based on the no. of participants each year. Does that matter though to FIRST if growth is stagnant and the budget shortfalls? We will find out soon enough.

[JB987]

And the sad irony here is that prior to this development I had a solid commitment for 2-3 new teams, reasonable likelihood of two returns to active and at most 2 teams folding...net gain of 3 to add to the current 8 Vegas teams...A healthy increase by most standards I think.