Frank Answers Fridays: Expanded Championship Qualification

[RoboMom]

Originally Posted by RKazmer

What I really want to see eventually is a competition of different areas of the United States. For example, say Team A is running a district system and qualifies for "Championship" on the East Coast. Team A would then go to the East Coast Championship that hosts all of the winners from around the East Coast. From there, either national or international competition.

I understand that this isn't feasible for a lot of teams due to the multiple long distance trips and missing school/work for the events. However, eventually that could be a solution to the problem at hand.

Sounds like FTC and the 4 Super Regionals.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by RoboMom

Sounds like FTC and the 4 Super Regionals.

I think Jenny really hit it here. There are a lot of false dichotomies floating around (regional vs district, culture vs competition). If the program grows to FIES (FIRST In Every School), then regionals/districts probably won't exist as we know them now.
The model we use now is the model that works (mostly) now. As engineers we experiment and tweak (think Indiana model) and adapt and iterate. The future is a dark and mysterious place, and trying to force our current methods on that are patently absurd.

So it's really not a proposition of "our choices are A B or C" - the future may hold GHI. Or 7. Maybe Purple. Things that are inconceivable now, but will be obvious then.

[Lil' Lavery]

First off, a quick aside. When 1676, who just celebrated their 10th anniversary, is still considered "young-ish" in MAR, it tells you a lot about the team demographics in the region.


To those thinking a true world championship is feasible if a future where FRC is ubiquitous, consider FLL and why it has a "world festival" instead of a championship.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

First off, a quick aside. When 1676, who just celebrated their 10th anniversary, is still considered "young-ish" in MAR, it tells you a lot about the team demographics in the region.

Agreed; everything we're talking about would take a really long time. (Which is kind of the point, yes?) But if it does and when it does, I doubt we'll we worried about the fact that we have a 2%-qualifying World Championship/Festival. At least, no more worried than we are about every FRC decision. If we can accept that our growth would cause this, we can focus on leveraging that growth into much more local inspirational experiences.

[Lil' Lavery]

Not every region has seen the same stagnation in growth that MAR has. While, barring a game changer like the state funding Michigan has, the ~100 team mark seems to be the currently saturation level for the region, other regions have continued to grow. That's the reason why Championship qualification has become a contentious issue in the first place. FIRST bought themselves some more time by expanding the field to 600 teams, but they haven't really addressed the root cause yet or set a definite path for the qualificaiton method going forward. So far as we can tell, they want to keep the style of their premiere event the same, but even that is inference.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by MooreteP

Unfortunately, there is a conflict between continuing the idea of a World Championship for FIRST, and "having s team in every high school".

How many High School sports have a National Championship, let alone a World Championship?
Why do we want to believe it is possible to pull this off?

Do the math.

If you had to pick just one of these goals, Growth vs. No World Championship, which would it be?
(check your ego).

FIRST has never said they want a FRC team in every high school in the country. They've only said they want a FIRST team in every school in the country.

It's not logistically possible to have a FRC team in every high school. It's too expensive, too much of a drain on teachers, requires too many mentors, and too many competitions. No matter what spin you put on it, it's simply not possible.

If you extend down to FTC (or VEX) it's a lot more plausible that every school in the country could have a robotics program, since it costs and order of magnitude less to participate.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by MooreteP

Unfortunately, there is a conflict between continuing the idea of a World Championship for FIRST, and "having s team in every high school".

How many High School sports have a National Championship, let alone a World Championship?
Why do we want to believe it is possible to pull this off?

Do the math.

The FIRST experience practices project management with technology.
It's a time and motion study to coordinate the creation, competition and ultimate arbitration (Einstein).
To keep growing, the four month window should to be doubled to a September start.

If you had to pick just one of these goals, Growth vs. No World Championship, which would it be?
(check your ego).

I agree with what you're saying; there's a large trade off that has to be made. However, when looking at any high school sport, they have very different goals than FIRST. For example, the goal any high school volleyball organization is not to promote the game of volleyball and change culture such that volleyball is more accepted. The goal is simply to provide students with a place to play volleyball. FIRST on the other hand has multiple goals. They want to provide teams with a program that allows them to participate, but they are also trying to create a massive shift in culture. The World Championship is a huge part of this shift, as it's the stage FIRST needs to get the type of large scale publicity that's needed to achieve the culture change they're going for. Yes, there are other models that could achieve the same goals that FIRST is striving for, but as it stands right now, the World Championship is central to FIRST achieving their current mission.

[Banderoonies]

One idea is to have an entire division of rookies (first and second year teams) in one division. you can crown a rookie champion this way. All teams winning rookie award are placed there. rookies that have won a regional can have a choice. just a thought.

[allgoodthehood]

Personally I like having other teams come to Minnesota regardless if they win our regional's or not. Considering I am a new member to FIRST, and we didn't attend worlds this year, I got to see teams compete that I other wise wouldn't have seen. I formed bonds with out of state teams, and really enjoyed their company. Overall, expanding my horizons.

[Alex2614]

I think going all districts is the way to go. Having some districts some not only provides cost and competitive benefits to those within districts. Those of us out of districts are still paying the same amount for less than half of the playing time (not to mention the higher travel cost due to distance and number of nights). Plus they are given more playing time and thus more opportunities for advancement.

A permanent "some district some not" only benefits those teams in more populated areas and alienates those in more rural areas. We need an all district system eventually or we will see rural teams diminish.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

I think going all districts is the way to go. Having some districts some not only provides cost and competitive benefits to those within districts. Those of us out of districts are still paying the same amount for less than half of the playing time (not to mention the higher travel cost due to distance and number of nights). Plus they are given more playing time and thus more opportunities for advancement.

A permanent "some district some not" only benefits those teams in more populated areas and alienates those in more rural areas. We need an all district system eventually or we will see rural teams diminish.

As trivial as this is to everyone who has done FIRST, especially teams like us in "rural" areas, I dont see any immediate changes happening anytime soon. I'm hoping that with Frank at the helm, he'll allow ANY team to participate in an existing district model after all teams from their own respective areas sign up first?
I found that over the years, I have changed and grown accustomed to playing more and more tournaments/matches every season. The thrill of a season with doing just 1 Regional and Championship is no longer enough. In the past, doing more than 1 event was a luxury. Now its the standard and I've grown accustomed to raising X amount of funds and playing X amount of matches.
Most district teams are used to paying only X amount of $$ to participate, and we want to be able to have the same pricing structure as well.
I'd give up the auto-qualifying HOF status and qualify via the State Championship route, if given the choice to participate in a District system with its associated costs.
Whether its in a HS gym or in a large stadium, I'm fine as long as there is Pizza at the concession stand.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by waialua359

As trivial as this is to everyone who has done FIRST, especially teams like us in "rural" areas, I dont see any immediate changes happening anytime soon. I'm hoping that with Frank at the helm, he'll allow ANY team to participate in an existing district model after all teams from their own respective areas sign up first?
I found that over the years, I have changed and grown accustomed to playing more and more tournaments/matches every season. I've grown accustomed to raising X amount of funds and playing X amount of matches.
Most district teams are used to paying only X amount of $$ to participate, and we want to be able to have the same pricing structure as well.
I'd give up the auto-qualifying HOF status and qualify via the State Championship route, if given the choice to participate in a District system with its associated costs.
Whether its in a HS gym or in a large stadium, I'm fine as long as there is Pizza at the concession stand.

Here's the real question: No money from entry fees goes directly to the events you attend. WHY does a second play cost what it does?

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Here's the real question: No money from entry fees goes directly to the events you attend. WHY does a second play cost what it does?

Or a third as in our case.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

I think going all districts is the way to go. Having some districts some not only provides cost and competitive benefits to those within districts. Those of us out of districts are still paying the same amount for less than half of the playing time (not to mention the higher travel cost due to distance and number of nights). Plus they are given more playing time and thus more opportunities for advancement.

A permanent "some district some not" only benefits those teams in more populated areas and alienates those in more rural areas. We need an all district system eventually or we will see rural teams diminish.

Interesting how travel costs are both being used as an argument for and against districts. Perhaps it's time we realize that travel costs are not really a controllable expense for the FRC population as a whole, and that some teams will pay more than others regardless of the system used. Some teams will be hurt by having to travel 2-3 times in a season, instead of just once. Others will be hurt by having to travel a further distance because there are not regionals in their immediate area (though I would imagine that any near-future distrcit system won't put multiple events in day-trip range of those teams).

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by Banderoonies

One idea is to have an entire division of rookies (first and second year teams) in one division. you can crown a rookie champion this way. All teams winning rookie award are placed there. rookies that have won a regional can have a choice. just a thought.

Have you ever been on a team that has won Rookie All-Star? I have the (granted, we won the regional too, but by chance. Beside the point). We worked very very hard to make it to champs, and the biggest thing that kept us going was being on the same field as the powerhouses. Even though we got our butts kicked, the most inspiring thing about the whole year was being on the same field with the "big kids." And from there, the next year, we were inspired to build a machine that could beat those teams.

Putting all Rookie All-Star winners on their own field is kind of like saying "aw, that's cute, but you're not really worthy of playing with us real FRC teams." There was already enough of the "aw, you're a rookie team, you must need tons of help, and let's overcrowd you with advice and help that you don't need" our rookie year, but being put on our own field would have just been a slap in the face to us. It would have felt like FIRST didn't really want us there, but they had to. There's a reason that Rookie All-Star, Chairman's, and EI winners are invited to champs in the first place, and there's a reason they were never segregated.

Just my $0.02 coming from when I was a founding member of a rookie team.