[FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

We don't have this in districts anymore but I will chime in that under the regional system this really should be considered.

It really wasn't worth the time to drive 25 minutes to the venue, spend 10 minutes unloading, and then drive 25 minutes home to spend 10 minutes the next morning clearing the pit again and in everyone's way.

We DO have this in our districts (MAR). Our DCMP (which is kind of a hike for most teams) is a load-in-only, no-setup thing on Wednesday night. Even just moving things off our carts and onto a logical place on our pit floor got us yelled at by volunteers. Not cool - not to mention that wasn't at all worth the 2.5 hour drive.

It's so insanely unsafe. 1923's pit this year was right near the loading dock, and partially blocking the hallway where inspections were, so we couldn't safely unpack our pit until every.single.truck. had been unloaded into the venue. Even then, it was a huge hassle with volunteers/other teams yelling at us for blocking their way to the inspectors (which wasn't even our fault, that's just where they put our pit!).

I think as long as the robot stays in the bag until Thursday morning, then setting up the pit should be fair game. It's not giving people extra early time to work on their robot, it's making it easier on the teams that have to load-in on Thursday morning by not having the aisles (as) full of other-team's-stuff.

This is largely a regional-level issue, but some help/recommendations from HQ wouldn't hurt. I think commenting on Frank's Blog with some suggestions/concerns is the right way to go. We know FRC reads Chief, but we should still lay it out on an official channel.

[thatprogrammer]

I agree with libby on unloading. As for practice fields, I do feel that something like requiring a full inspection prior to being allowed to play on the practice field the first day of comp should be implemented. Touching on a similar issue, anyone else got yelled at by volunteers for having a pit crew during eliminations? If an issue like this occurs, I wonder how something like setting up pits would be handled. Would we still see volunteers not knowing about certain rules, and affecting teams in the process?

[AlexD744]

Originally Posted by thatprogrammer

I agree with libby on unloading. As for practice fields, I do feel that something like requiring a full inspection prior to being allowed to play on the practice field the first day of comp should be implemented. Touching on a similar issue, anyone else got yelled at by volunteers for having a pit crew during eliminations? If an issue like this occurs, I wonder how something like setting up pits would be handled. Would we still see volunteers not knowing about certain rules, and affecting teams in the process?

Where did the pit crew incident occur? Orlando allows a small pit and pit crew behind the curtain, but South Florida just has teams use their normal pit since they're already so close to the field... and i believe that's a regional to regional decision.

Edit: I just looked it up and it seems that it's not a regional decision, but a manual enforced rule that teams may have up to three 'pit crew' members (5.4.5). Doesn't exactly define the parameters of where/what those members can do, but it seems I was mistaken. Sorry!

[AdamHeard]

It's very true that you get what you encourage.

The current practice field model inspires many teams to put of inspection.

They know the field closes at 4, and they likely won't get many practice matches. They hurry to pass a brief safety inspection, practice and then go to inspection at 4.

My team is guilty of this, among many others.

As a coach and inspector for many seasons (often at the same event), it's not shocking to me that this occurs. Teams are simply reacting to the constraints given to them in the most optimal fashion they can.

If the practice field started later and ran later, as well as had a cutoff (lets say 3pm) that you can't play past if you're not fully inspected, this issue would improve.

Better access to the practice matches is better for all parties involved. Obviously the teams and direct spectators benefit, but also the event itself. Presumably most events need to fundraise and have sponsors at the event, I've been to TOO many regionals where matches 1-3 are god awful embarassing but the same teams are substantially better in match 10+. This is because they missed the 4pm cutoff for practice, and their first match was their practice match! These are the matches sponsors are most likely to see first, and make a first impression from.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by thatprogrammer

anyone else got yelled at by volunteers for having a pit crew during eliminations?

Yes. I've had to pull out the manual multiple times.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by Libby K

We DO have this in our districts (MAR). Our DCMP (which is kind of a hike for most teams) is a load-in-only, no-setup thing on Wednesday night. Even just moving things off our carts and onto a logical place on our pit floor got us yelled at by volunteers. Not cool - not to mention that wasn't at all worth the 2.5 hour drive.

It's so insanely unsafe. 1923's pit this year was right near the loading dock, and partially blocking the hallway where inspections were, so we couldn't safely unpack our pit until every.single.truck. had been unloaded into the venue. Even then, it was a huge hassle with volunteers/other teams yelling at us for blocking their way to the inspectors (which wasn't even our fault, that's just where they put our pit!).

I think as long as the robot stays in the bag until Thursday morning, then setting up the pit should be fair game. It's not giving people extra early time to work on their robot, it's making it easier on the teams that have to load-in on Thursday morning by not having the aisles (as) full of other-team's-stuff.

This is largely a regional-level issue, but some help/recommendations from HQ wouldn't hurt. I think commenting on Frank's Blog with some suggestions/concerns is the right way to go. We know FRC reads Chief, but we should still lay it out on an official channel.

Not to be harsh, but maybe that's a problem with pit design. Our team can unload and setup our pit without stepping outside of it.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

Not to be harsh, but maybe that's a problem with pit design. Our team can unload and setup our pit without stepping outside of it.

Oh, I'm certainly not saying our pit is perfect, but the fact is that only so many people-and-robot-and-boxes-of-stuff can fit in an 8x8 (10x10 if you're lucky) space. Gotta drop stuff in on Wednesday night, make the boxes/carts all fit in the space, and then bring it all out of 'storage' to place it in the right spots/set up our vertical displays Thursday morning.

It doesn't make a lot of sense compared to coming in Wednesday night, setting up the pit as it's loaded in, and then keeping the bagged robot on display in the middle, ready for unbag & inspection when we get in Thursday.

[Mr V]

One reason that you can't allow pit set up on load in night is that not all venues have a load in night and that even applies to district events. As Frank mentioned in the blog post the only real change that was announced is that those venues that have a load in night will now show up as a "4 day" event on the schedule rather than the typical listing of 3 days.

[sanddrag]

DampRobot, beautifully articulated. I couldn't have said it better myself. I want to like the volunteers, I really do, and most times I do, but not always. The 'arbitrary' nature of certain rules ( and the sometimes ruthless enforcement of said arbitrary rules) really is the element that bugs us logical thinking engineer types, always searching for optimization, efficiency, and an answer to "why?". In some cases, it does become a competition of who can " play" the rules the best.

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

Not to be harsh, but maybe that's a problem with pit design. Our team can unload and setup our pit without stepping outside of it.

If 973 rolls in their Super Pit and pops a couple latches and is ready to compete or I make 14 trips carrying in cardboard boxes and plastic crates and unpacking it all, what's the difference?

I'll tell you the difference: Thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours. I don't have the funds nor time to make the pit area you describe. Your team figured it out. Good for you. Even with our sponsors-plastered vinyl-wrapped trailer, team-owned tow vehicle and 14 years experience, we still have not been able to make a nice looking and functional pit area that sets up quick, and comparatively we're at a disadvantage to those who have.

*Disclaimer
And I don't mean this post to reflect negatively on 973 in any way, quite on the contrary. I'm just completely envious of their pit. It's a masterpiece. They saw a problem and solved it in magnificent fashion, and I wish I could say we've done the same. And before Adam says it, yes, rather than mentioning what I don't have, I should work harder to get what I want. .

Realistically though, resources are not infinite. There are limits to what teams can do, and we shouldn't have to jump through ridiculous hoops (**cough** practice bot after bagging) for the 80th percentile teams to bridge that huge performance gap to becoming 90th percentile teams.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

*Disclaimer
And I don't mean this post to reflect negatively on 973 in any way, quite on the contrary. I'm just completely envious of their pit. It's a masterpiece. They saw a problem and solved it in magnificent fashion, and I wish I could say we've done the same. And before Adam says it, yes, rather than mentioning what I don't have, I should work harder to get what I want. .

I'll only point out that in terms of people, funds and equipment 696 has a good deal more resources

[Mastonevich]

2nd for Allens thoughts.