Pit work during ceremonies

[treffk]

Originally Posted by EricH

Check the FRC Safety Manual. Certain colors are perfectly fine (as I recall, it's amber, blue, and one other, I want to say red) but anything else (like reflective) is out. Not sure why, but that's the way it is.

It's clear, blue, amber and yellow that are allowed according to the manual as long as they are non-reflective. Amber is the only color I have not bought for my team. We only had colored glasses one year which is where we ran into the blue being slightly too dark and not being able to see our pupils.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by MARS_James

I have never had anyone at any event ask me to leave the pit for opening ceremonies

Then you're not going to the right (wrong?) events. Regional competitions I have visited in the past have always trotted out the most lovely of individuals to bluntly kick out even the most troubled rookie on Friday morning. When we went to Alamo this year and DIDN'T have that happen, I was surprised. I'm sure the multiple teams, including the one our programmer and pit tech helped were thankful.

Thanks to Aren for pointing that out, because I don't seem to read the Admin Manual cover-to-cover like I should.

[Brandon Holley]

Most of the argument to keep the pits clear during ceremonies boils down to 2 items: 1. Keep noise to a minimum while people are speaking and 2. Pack the stands to show the VIPs how enthusiastic the crowd is. Both valid points.

I was the event chair for the Northeastern District Event this year and was able to see both sides of the fence (team perspective and event chair perspective). Honestly though, there seems to be a very reasonable compromise (which is partially outlined in the rules). No power tools or loud working (hammering, robot operation, etc). No more than X people TOTAL left in the pits per team (3-4 sounds reasonable).

I instructed my volunteers to encourage people to leave the pit and attend ceremonies, but explicitly instructed them to not attempt to 'kick' anyone out of the pit. To my knowledge, no team left a dozen people in the pit, or attempted to fire up a dremel and grind something off their robot. Teams who felt they needed to work on their robots were able to do so (btw this should be something an individual team decides, not a volunteer), and the crowd for ceremonies was full and energetic.

A team is perfectly within their right to work on their robots during ceremonies as outlined in the rule quoted by Aren. At the end of the day- why put the rule in the rulebook if its not meant to be the guide to event to event consistency?

-Brando

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

A team is perfectly within their right to work on their robots during ceremonies as outlined in the rule quoted by Aren. At the end of the day- why put the rule in the rulebook if its not meant to be the guide to event to event consistency?

Please note that rule only applies if the pits are open. If an event determines specific times that the pits are closed (for example, during opening/closing ceremonies), then the pits are closed. Many volunteers want to see the ceremonies, but we can't if we're stuck back in the pits ensuring the safety of everyone there.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Please note that rule only applies if the pits are open. If an event determines specific times that the pits are closed (for example, during opening/closing ceremonies), then the pits are closed. Many volunteers want to see the ceremonies, but we can't if we're stuck back in the pits ensuring the safety of everyone there.

I guess for me the ultimate goal should be just creating a pleasant and consistent experience event to event. This will help greatly with the tensions that can arise with team expectations and event expectations not being in the same place. If every event is (very close to) the same, then everyone can be on the same page with expectations, but thats certainly not the case as it is now.

Why put specific criteria in verbiage for the rules with a header of "DURING CEREMONIES" that specifies how to handle national anthems if the pits are closed? To me, its an event circumventing the rules, which goes back to my above point of creating a consistent experience for all teams in all locations.

Just my 2 cents on the manner as someone with perspective on both sides of the fence.

-Brando

[MARS_James]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Please note that rule only applies if the pits are open. If an event determines specific times that the pits are closed (for example, during opening/closing ceremonies), then the pits are closed. Many volunteers want to see the ceremonies, but we can't if we're stuck back in the pits ensuring the safety of everyone there.

I have a big problem with this, the manual clearly states rules for people in the pits during ceremonies, meaning it is not against the rules to be in the pits, thus they should be open at ALL competitions. I am going to address this and several other comments below PLEASE NOTE these are my feelings and are not meant as a personal attack on anyone just me stating things:

At the 2010 Florida Regional (Now Orlando Regional), my final competition as a student, we had a brutal schedule, and a sub par robot. When awards ceremonies came on Friday as de facto team captain I made the decision that the rest of the seniors (4 of them) who wanted to work on the robot could but the rest of the team was to be in the stands. We wound up winning the Website award, while walking down I grabbed one of our rookies and told them to go to the pit to get he rest of our team for the picture. Why am I telling this? One of those seniors was not only our lead mechanic, but one of only 2 people to work on the Website in attendance, so he missed walking down to the applause and getting the trophy but we made sure he was in the picture from the event. When I talked to him about later he said something that stuck with me, he was working on this robot for the kids in the stands who were going to be around after us so they could see what we could do with hardwork, was he upset that he couldn't go down to the fan fare and the shaking of hands, yes but it would be worth it down the line.

After 4 build seasons on a team, getting no accolades from FIRST, he received one that really only he worked on to get, and he couldn't receive it, and he wasn't upset by it. Volunteers make the decision to volunteer, that means a time commitment to what you are doing, that means missing speeches, or awards, heck as a mentor I missed Dean attending Orlando in 2013 because when he was in the pits, we were queuing for a match, and when he went out to make a speech I had to rush back to the pits to do an emergency repair because I didn't want our students to miss what he was going to say. As adults, whether we be parents mentors volunteers coaches or teachers, we make sacrifices of our time, energy, and even happiness for our teams or even the community as a whole, because it is all worth it to see the looks on the faces of the students when they win a match, or get an award, or even just get the robot to finally move on the field.

If there are people who are speaking at these events who are upset that not everyone is out in the stands to hear them, then they don't get what we are trying to do here, if we could inspire people by talking to them, then we wouldn't need FIRST.

Sorry for the long rant but seriously guys remember we are doing this for the students, the students worked on this robot for 6 weeks or more, let them do what they feel they need to, and let the teams decide what that is.

*steps off of soapbox*

[FrankJ]

Do realize the people putting on the event have a lot of leeway in interpreting the rules. They are also the final interpreter of the rules for their event.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Don't make it a judgement call. Allow 3-4 members from every team to stay back and explicitly disallow power tools. Done.

[Alpha Beta]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

Don't make it a judgement call. Allow 3-4 members from every team to stay back and explicitly disallow power tools. Done.

I'm in for this really clear ruling.

I wouldn't mind a modification that the number of mentors can never exceed the number of students in a pit. I don't really care who is doing the work as long as students are present to be inspired by it.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Alpha Beta

I wouldn't mind a modification that the number of mentors can never exceed the number of students in a pit. I don't really care who is doing the work as long as students are present to be inspired by it.

I agree with the intent of coming up with rules like this however I would rather we leave who is in the pits as up to the teams and leave it as their own business.

[Bryan Herbst]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

Teams who felt they needed to work on their robots were able to do so (btw this should be something an individual team decides, not a volunteer), and the crowd for ceremonies was full and energetic.

Now we run into the issue of what constitutes a need to work on the robot. For some teams it is obvious- maybe their robot isn't moving. However, many teams also see other "needs." Maybe my robot is already the best robot at the regional, but I "need" to tweak the shooter arm a little bit to ensure I got from getting 95% of the shots to 100% of the shots. Is this really a need though? Should I skip the opening ceremonies to do this?

I'm fine with letting teams who actually have a need sticking around to work on their robot, but allowing the teams to determine if there is a need is essentially the same as just letting everyone stay back in the pit anyway.

Originally Posted by MARS_James

Sorry for the long rant but seriously guys remember we are doing this for the students, the students worked on this robot for 6 weeks or more, let them do what they feel they need to, and let the teams decide what that is.

Many of those volunteers who would like to clear the pits for opening ceremonies don't just want to view the ceremonies for the sake of viewing the ceremonies. Many of those volunteers are also mentors for teams and want to be there to celebrate, congratulate, and recognize students from their team and from other teams.

We will never get to a point where we can pull all of the volunteers from the pits due to safety concerns, but if we can get 95% of the teams out of the pits, the vast majority of volunteers in the pits can attend opening ceremonies.

I'm also not convinced that the rules for people being in the pits means that everyone can stay in the pits. As another user posted earlier, I interpret that as being "if you absolutely need to be in the pits, here are the rules." I think it's a good question for Frank.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Tanis

Now we run into the issue of what constitutes a need to work on the robot. For some teams it is obvious- maybe their robot isn't moving. However, many teams also see other "needs." Maybe my robot is already the best robot at the regional, but I "need" to tweak the shooter arm a little bit to ensure I got from getting 95% of the shots to 100% of the shots. Is this really a need though? Should I skip the opening ceremonies to do this?

Right because we should be teaching our students that not doing your absolute best is acceptable. If I am not 100% perfect all the time and I have students that want to work on the bot to get it to that point you can bet your mediocrity loving butt I say there's a need. I'm not going to let some talking head* get in the way of inspiration just so they can feel important. I'm going to be showing my students the value of passion.


* Talking heads that will always joke about how they couldn't do half of what these kids do. Because that's the lesson we want to show our students, that technical illiteracy is acceptable. That it's something to joke about.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

* Talking heads that will always joke about how they couldn't do half of what these kids do. Because that's the lesson we want to show our students, that technical illiteracy is acceptable. That it's something to joke about.

I've never seen any VIP laugh about illiteracy or 'ha ha dumb is cool' - I guess I missed the regional Jessica Simpson judged.
What I have seen is some very powerful people who give the clear message that the students in the stands have a clear advantage on the speakers themselves - access to an innovative and exciting program that can catapult any one of the kids higher than said speakers.
And I'd hate for some of my students to miss out on this potential inspiration because they were tightening a 10-32 bolt.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Taylor

I've never seen any VIP laugh about illiteracy or 'ha ha dumb is cool' - I guess I missed the regional Jessica Simpson judged.
What I have seen is some very powerful people who give the clear message that the students in the stands have a clear advantage on the speakers themselves - access to an innovative and exciting program that can catapult any one of the kids higher than said speakers.
And I'd hate for some of my students to miss out on this potential inspiration because they were tightening a 10-32 bolt.

Most of the time I see a politician at opening ceremonies there is a joke about "You kids are doing something I could never do" followed by some nervous laughter. But this could be a function of the majority of our political leaders have zero engineering background.


Course, I'm probably just too jaded by a decade of hearing politicians say how important education is and seeing school budgets continue to be slashed to the point of one teacher I know having to purchase furniture for their classroom out of their pocket.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Taylor

I've never seen any VIP laugh about illiteracy or 'ha ha dumb is cool' - I guess I missed the regional Jessica Simpson judged.

That's a pretty unnecessary ad hominem attack on someone you clearly know very little about.