Pit work during ceremonies

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Karthik

That's a pretty unnecessary ad hominem attack on someone you clearly know very little about.

While I agree that the comment was a bit out of line, I'd take anything on Jezebel with a grain of salt. Also the linked article didn't seem like much of a rebuttal other than "well, she makes 750 million (which is certainly not a billion) a year on fashion so clearly she isn't THAT dumb."

Back to the main of the thread, I think Tom's suggestion is pretty solid-- with an accompanying warning that, hey, there are probably some pretty important people that want to talk to and congratulate you and it would be nice to show them some respect.

On related note, it would be really nice if politicians didn't send the exact same video to multiple regionals. Especially multiple years in a row.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

On related note, it would be really nice if politicians didn't send the exact same video to multiple regionals. Especially multiple years in a row.

I probably know the politician you're referring to, and can probably quote along with the video by now, having seen it twice a year for a number of years... lets just say that regardless of party she wouldn't be getting my vote

[scca229]

Regarding the "closing" of the pits during the ceremonies, I look at it not only as the aforementioned respect for the speakers and recipients, but also as a time for everyone to take a break from the robot itself and take in the atmosphere of how incredible it is what you are actually doing. You are competing with 140lb ROBOTS that YOU built! Take the 1/2 hour to clear the head, stop thrashing and enjoy the company of a few thousand of your peers that have a LOT in common with you. Make friends. You never know, some could become lifelong.

I am pursuing becoming an FTA not only because I enjoy the technology, atmosphere and inner workings of the events, but also due to the mantra that I have running through my head at every event that I have worked:

These kids shouldn't really have to know how hard it is to put an event on until after they are through their Participant phase and enter their Mentor phase (and hopefully Volunteer phase as well). They will find out soon enough.

I have been an FTAA 3 times (hopefully I can remove that last A next year) along with an event as an Inspector. Seeing the amount of dedication that the Volunteers (Key, Lead, Eye Protection Handout...take your pick) have for making the event go off is amazing. The planning for the next years event begins pretty much when the field is being packed up into the truck to head to the next venue (and sometimes even before that).

Think back to your events and try to remember when you didn't see the Key Volunteers either on-station or rushing around. They are pretty much on the job from a few hours before the venue opens each day through a few hours after Pits close trying to grab a bite to eat when they can (or being forced to eat by other Volunteers that notice you haven't eaten anything...Thanks Guys!). Sometimes the ceremonies are the only time certain Volunteer positions can realistically take a break.

I know that as FTAA during the Las Vegas Regional this year my Body Bug reported that I covered about 55 miles, about 95% of that in the space of the field and immediate surrounding, from Wednesday morning at field assembly through Saturday night when the back of the truck closed after packing the field into it. Some friends and family even mentioned not seeing me move that much, or that fast, in a long time when they were watching the streaming feed.

Working an event is easily the most exhausting thing I have ever done...and I love it and wouldn't miss it for the world. My wife has accepted the fact that she is now a Robotics Widow and that I am pretty much useless the day after an event wraps up.

See you from the other side of the glass in 2015!

[AllenGregoryIV]

Whenever I am at event I try to remind people of the rule that allows people to stay in the pits. Rarely is this ever abused to have entire teams crowding in their pits. People making lots of noise and things can be asked politely to quite down and they have always complied in my experience.

I truly believe that this needs to be set one way or the other. No one should have to guess how much time they are going to have to make a repair or get some tasks accomplished. Either we allow a few team members in the pit and hold events to that or officially close the pits and make it illegal for teams to be doing work. I really don't like the latter because it would be harder for me to get teams inspected but if anyone is allowed to work, everyone should be allowed to work. Isn't the whole point of our current bag system an attempt to keep build time equal yet event volunteers are allowed to decide which teams get more time to work on their robot. Again I understand why we do this and most teams won't complain for giving teams that need it more time to get through inspection, but it just seems simple enough to me to allow all teams to continue to work and put the best product on the field possible. Again within a reasonable limit.

[EricH]

A proposal:

The rule should be amended to clarify, something on the order of:

"[TXYZ] During opening and closing ceremonies, teams may work on their robots, with the following restrictions:
--No more than 6 team members in the pit.
--No use of power tools.
--Other noisy operations to be kept to a minimum--this potentially includes but is not limited to robot operations and hand sawing.

In the event that a team does not follow the above restrictions, event staff may request that the entire team leave the pit area.

Teams are encouraged to have their entire team attend the ceremonies as a team if at all possible.

[TABC] TXYZ may be suspended for an event if the Regional Director, FTA, and other staff as appropriate determine that having teams working will provide a distraction from the ceremonies at a certain venue. If this determination is reached, all teams must be out of the pit during ceremonies. In the interest of fairness, all teams must be informed of the restriction as soon as possible. Teams that have yet to pass inspection and have a match within the first ten matches of competition may apply through the Lead Inspector to work in or near the machine shop or other out-of-pit location for the duration of the ceremonies, under the restrictions outlined in TXYZ."


The trick with the second part is that it allows teams that really need to work a chance to try to get some working time, but they have to find a place that won't disturb the ceremonies. If you're "I have to get this automode fine-tuned right now" then you probably won't be given clearance--but you can also make arrangements to not go very far and be back quickly (and there's a chance of not being allowed to do that in the first place, as that could involve running a robot, which is a potentially forbidden activity).

[jvriezen]

I in no way intended to be hostile toward anyone here, and I apologize that it came across that way. My objection was not to Brandon specifically. Looking back at the prior posts, it was this statement that lead to my comment:

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

Whenever I am at event I try to remind people [emphasis added, see below] of the rule that allows people to stay in the pits.

As I've stated, there is no 'rule' that allows people to stay in the pits during ceremonies in the event that the pits happen to be closed during the ceremonies, which from actual practice and lack of rule specifics about when the pit must be 'open' seems to be up to the discretion of the event leadership.

I guess the 'people' in the above quote may be misinterpreted... Perhaps the 'people' meant to refer to those who try to close the pits (pit admin, etc.) I initially interpreted it to mean anyone and everyone (students and mentors of other teams) and encouraging them to stay in the pit during ceremonies if they wished in defiance of leadership declaring the pits closed. Again, I apologize for the confusion.

[stufflikethat]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

Back to the main of the thread, I think Tom's suggestion is pretty solid-- with an accompanying warning that, hey, there are probably some pretty important people that want to talk to and congratulate you and it would be nice to show them some respect.

I see your point here about being respectful, but in all fairness what makes these people's 30 minutes any more important than mine or anyone else's. To them its just a speech at a cool robotics event, to my team its 6 weeks of hard work and our chance to attend champs. If "important" people want to come speak at events during ceremonies that is all good, but personally I have heard the opening ceremony speech too many times. Sometimes at an event I would rather work on our team's robot or help a struggling team, while other times I'll be lucky enough to have the luxury to listen to the speaker and simply relax.

In all until the rule states EVERYBODY must leave the pits people should be allowed to respectfully use them in a quiet fashion that is not distracting.

[E Dawg]

Originally Posted by stufflikethat

I see your point here about being respectful, but in all fairness what makes these people's 30 minutes any more important than mine or anyone else's.

Absolutely nothing. That's why we should go to the opening ceremonies. It means that we're saying "Hey, even though I might have better things to do, I am willing to take time out of my busy schedule to come and listen to you." It shows humility as well as respect.

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by E Dawg

Absolutely nothing. That's why we should go to the opening ceremonies. It means that we're saying "Hey, even though I might have better things to do, I am willing to take time out of my busy schedule to come and listen to you." It shows humility as well as respect.

Somewhat agree.. most often you do not have 'better things' to do. The speakers and those introduced usually fall into one or more of the following categories, which should be very compelling reasons to attend and be the better thing you have to do:

1) They (or employees of their company that are allowed time off for FIRST) have volunteered a lot of time to make FIRST and/or the event a reality. You owe them the benefit of your presence and applause as a sign of gratitude and to encourage them to continue their generous support.
2) They have donated a lot of money to make FIRST and/or the event a reality. You owe them the benefit of your presence as a sign of gratitude and to encourage them to continue their generous support.
3) They are influential people (usually politicians) and ...

For that reason, FIRST needs you to
Inspire them and help them
Recognize the value of
Science and
Technology

so that the goals of FIRST are better achieved.

Most of the the people speaking or being introduced (Judges, Refs) have made huge personal sacrifices to give you the FIRST experience. Can you sacrifice a half hour of bot time to give them some thanks by your presence and applause?

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by stufflikethat

I see your point here about being respectful, but in all fairness what makes these people's 30 minutes any more important than mine or anyone else's. To them its just a speech at a cool robotics event, to my team its 6 weeks of hard work and our chance to attend champs. If "important" people want to come speak at events during ceremonies that is all good, but personally I have heard the opening ceremony speech too many times.

This is just like that 'why does Einstein have to face the VIP box' thread about Championship.

What makes their time worth your attention is that they've contributed support, in any number of ways, to help make FIRST happen in your region (or on a global scale, in the case of someone like Dean or Woodie). If they're important enough to warrant speeches, then they're there to help bring attention to the event you're at. How exactly is that not "important"?

These people you don't think are important, just because they're not on a team themselves, may have spent just as much time and effort on FIRST as you have in other ways. And their effort is just as important as yours. It's up to you to recognize that and respect them with your time and attention, just as they're respecting you and your efforts with their attendance.

You can put your power tools down for 20 minutes to give these people some respect. Send all-or-most of your team to the stands to respect FIRST's invited guests, and if you really feel like you need 3 or 4 people in the pit, make sure they know to keep it down.

How is that so hard?

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by Libby K

You can put your power tools down for 20 minutes to give these people some respect. Send all-or-most of your team to the stands to respect FIRST's invited guests, and if you really feel like you need 3 or 4 people in the pit, make sure they know to keep it down.

How is that so hard?

It's not. Your response seems, you know, totally reasonable.

[Dillon Carey]

Originally Posted by Libby K

You can put your power tools down for 20 minutes to give these people some respect. Send all-or-most of your team to the stands to respect FIRST's invited guests, and if you really feel like you need 3 or 4 people in the pit, make sure they know to keep it down.

How is that so hard?

I am going to restate that this is a very reasonable way to deal with the situation. The way the rules are currently stated outline this, however they could be clarified.

To address all the people that seem to think that everyone should be forced out of the pit because that last 20-30 min isn't necessary, you're wrong. In some cases everything just works and you can attend the ceremony, but in my experience, there is nearly ALWAYS something that isn't working right.

People have said that tweaking these little things aren't worth missing out on the ceremony. I'm sorry, but some of these kids have put an enormous amount of effort into their robots. They have spent 6+ weeks pouring all of their spare time into trying to make the best robot they can, and even with all of that time, many teams can't quite get it all done.

I was forced out of the pits when I was a student, even after showing the rules which stated I could stay, and it was very frustrating. Sometimes the all of the effort you put into your bot comes down to that last 20 minutes. As long as the rules state (very clearly in my opinion) that it is allowed to work in the pits I will argue this with any volunteer that states otherwise.

I don't want to see a kids entire competition ruined because they were forced out of the pit.

[waialua359]

Hopefully Frank could address this with all of the RD's of various events and have this ironed out.
Its great that this issue has been pointed out, and based on the responses on this thread, a decision needs to be made, clarified and uniformly addressed at all regionals since there are varying opinions and interpretations on the matter.

One of the most frustrating things in general to deal with are varying interpretations of rules that are applied/not applied from one event to another.

[Bryan Herbst]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Right because we should be teaching our students that not doing your absolute best is acceptable. If I am not 100% perfect all the time and I have students that want to work on the bot to get it to that point you can bet your mediocrity loving butt I say there's a need. I'm not going to let some talking head* get in the way of inspiration just so they can feel important. I'm going to be showing my students the value of passion.

This is more or less my point- every team has something they can be doing to make their robot better, and I am all in favor of making robots better. What I take issue with is saying that only teams with a real need can stay back and leaving that "need" decision up to the team.

That being said, I also don't think that the ever present room for improvement is a valid argument for letting everyone stay in the pits during opening ceremonies. That half hour shouldn't make a huge difference in how inspired or accomplished the students are. I also hope that one day the opening ceremonies can be just as inspiring as a half hour in the pits (and some of the championship ceremonies already are).

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Right because we should be teaching our students that not doing your absolute best is acceptable.

In some contexts, this is absolutely true and it is a lesson we need to teach our students (and sometimes ourselves).

"Perfection at any cost" is not a good universal plan. Unfortunately, in the real world we function under real constraints and real opportunity-cost. Everything is a cost-benefit analysis. There is a cost to staying in the pits during opening ceremonies. There is also a benefit. The question is not one of wonky heuristic high-order principles like whether or not you "need" to improve your robot, it is purely a utility calculus based on the facts of the situation.

I think you do your students a disservice if you neglect this. Hell, it's not only the students - mentor burnout is a real problem in FRC, and one of the big driving factors is that people feel the need to put absolutely everything into it with no mind for the costs. You should always mind the costs.

Moreover, however you feel on the matter, I don't think it's fair or productive to dismiss the speakers FRC provides at competition as "talking heads promoting technical illiteracy." That's not at all the vibe I get from most of the speakers I've heard. Additionally, it seems clear to me that not everyone is good at math, and not everyone can be good at math. We gain nothing as a society by ostracizing the people who do not have mathematical talent - we should certainly strive to increase mathematical literacy, but it is a fiction to imagine that everyone can flourish in a technical field. FIRST is about inspiration and recognition. One does not have to be an engineer to be inspired by and to recognize the value of engineering, and I do not believe that the purpose of FIRST is to turn everyone into an engineer. The joke you mention, to my ears, is not glorifying those who lack ability, it's appreciating those who have it. That is what we should strive for, and it is a perfectly fine message.