One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop

[MichaelBick]

Originally Posted by Sam_Mills

For FRC use, definitely lathe>mill if for no other reason than how many COTS parts now are made for hex shaft.

There are ways of getting around these issues. You can buy spacers and shaft collars.

[Sam_Mills]

Originally Posted by MichaelBick

There are ways of getting around these issues. You can buy spacers and shaft collars.

Fair point, especially with FRC time constraints when it may not be practical to spend time making tons of snap ring grooves. Although it is at the cost of a little weight.

Lathes have other uses however. Centering holes in round stock to quickly make standoffs is a big one. You can also tap holes with a lathe, and I have even known some teams to use it to broach.

IMO it is also much quicker to learn how to correctly use a lathe than it is a mill, an important thing to consider when you have high school students using machines.

[artdutra04]

A decent quality, used lathe will unlock much more potential than any other tool at the same price range.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Monochron

Slow and steady improvements to quality facilities will be part of our path to success

So, a bit of a follow up question then. A couple of people have said that with additional tooling you can do many "mill tasks" with a lathe. Is it feasible to purchase a lathe now, and then over time step up the lathe to do a couple milling tasks? It wouldn't give us the machining power of a full mill, but we could make do with a little pain and extra effort?

Yes, you can do light and limited milling with a lathe, using an attachment like the one shown on this page. For newer "non-collectable" lathes you can get one for under $150, but for old Atlas lathes I've seen these for $400+. Of course, you're not making sideplates with this, but most milling tasks are possible, albeit a little more time-consuming (you have to go slow).

An alternative is an X-Y milling vise for your drill press. You can do light milling with somewhat more flexibility than the lathe setup. Avoid the very cheap ones, they are terribly inaccurate. These are great for drilling accurate hole patterns as well (and often that's the only use they see).

Fair warning: Even if your drill press is a huge industrial beefy monster, this WILL hurt the spindle bearings a little each time you use it, but perhaps this trade-off is acceptable. New bearings are not costly, and the repair is good for the kids to learn. But a drill press is not designed for side loading on the chuck, just know that.

Give yourself some time to find a good machine, maybe a whole year. Find a parent or local business willing to show you the basics (or the trade school option mentioned above). Buy the book "How to run a Lathe" - way old school (100 years ago!) but a treasure trove of excellent data and instruction. Ask here, there are many who would be tickled pink to help.

[Jacob Plicque]

I suggest getting a surplus mill or lathe from a regional machine shop or manufacturer or workshop enthusist. We have three machines (two free) with a complete set of tools with a total investment of ~$1K plus a trailer rental for a 300 mile one way travel. It can be done on small budget like yours. Our equipment ranges in age from 20 to 40+ years but they are in full working order. Each unit has some quirks/idiosyncrasies which can be overcome by testing and measuring the results.

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

An alternative is an X-Y milling vise for your drill press. You can do light milling with somewhat more flexibility than the lathe setup. Avoid the very cheap ones, they are terribly inaccurate. These are great for drilling accurate hole patterns as well (and often that's the only use they see).

Do you find that putting one of these on a standard drill press holds tight enough tolerances for tube/gusset plate constructions? We've been doing those purely by match-drilling, but being able to drill them independently would be very nice.

Also, if you do have your drill press set up with one of these, do you just use an edge finder in the drill press the same way you would on a mill?

[asid61]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

Yes, you can do light and limited milling with a lathe, using an attachment like the one shown on this page. For newer "non-collectable" lathes you can get one for under $150, but for old Atlas lathes I've seen these for $400+. Of course, you're not making sideplates with this, but most milling tasks are possible, albeit a little more time-consuming (you have to go slow).

An alternative is an X-Y milling vise for your drill press. You can do light milling with somewhat more flexibility than the lathe setup. Avoid the very cheap ones, they are terribly inaccurate. These are great for drilling accurate hole patterns as well (and often that's the only use they see).

Fair warning: Even if your drill press is a huge industrial beefy monster, this WILL hurt the spindle bearings a little each time you use it, but perhaps this trade-off is acceptable. New bearings are not costly, and the repair is good for the kids to learn. But a drill press is not designed for side loading on the chuck, just know that.

Give yourself some time to find a good machine, maybe a whole year. Find a parent or local business willing to show you the basics (or the trade school option mentioned above). Buy the book "How to run a Lathe" - way old school (100 years ago!) but a treasure trove of excellent data and instruction. Ask here, there are many who would be tickled pink to help.

Good advice. However, I disagree about the X-Y table for the drill press. Drill presses are not designed AT ALL for milling. If/when the spindle bearings fail, then the whole thing becomes a massive safety hazard. This is not a substitute for a mill and should not be used as one or anything other than plastic.

[Team118Joseph]

I recommend pneumatic rivet pullers and other pneumatic tools. They are usually more compact and can produce higher speeds.

[Seth Mallory]

Are you planning this for this season? If so buy to mach your skills. If your team has lathe skill but not milling than buy a lathe. The same goes for mill or 3d printer or any other tools. It is not worth trying to learn how to use a tool during build. A mentor with sheet metal skills can do more for a team teaching the students with a shear and a brake then mill taking up need valuable time during build.

[Joe G.]

Originally Posted by asid61

Good advice. However, I disagree about the X-Y table for the drill press. Drill presses are not designed AT ALL for milling. If/when the spindle bearings fail, then the whole thing becomes a massive safety hazard. This is not a substitute for a mill and should not be used as one or anything other than plastic.

I would say that if your primary interest in a mill is the ability to precisely locate features and do hole patterns, an X/Y table and drill press is a great choice. However, as soon as jobs that require endmills get introduced, time to step it up to a real mill.

I will second the many suggestions in this thread to look to the used market. Be patient, and you'll find some great deals. My team got a FANTASTIC deal on a great quality off-brand Series 1 mill clone, with DRO, work holding, and X power feed included, for $700. We've also gotten a 12" lathe at a used tool shop for $600, and had a smaller lathe donated.

[Travis Schuh]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

An alternative is an X-Y milling vise for your drill press. You can do light milling with somewhat more flexibility than the lathe setup. Avoid the very cheap ones, they are terribly inaccurate. These are great for drilling accurate hole patterns as well (and often that's the only use they see).

I agree that you could use an XY vice on a drill press for preciser hole centers to centers, but I would highly recommend against doing milling. Most drill chucks are held in with just the friction of a morse taper. Milling will add side vibration loads that will loosen this hold, and ultimately have the chuck fall out on you.

[scottandme]

Not to pile on top of the previous comments, but also note that drill chucks are unable to safely sustain radial loads, even when used in a proper milling machine.

Some tiny benchtop milling machines do have morse taper spindles, but they are designed for (small) radial loads, and include a drawbar like a regular milling machine would have.

On topic - used is the way to go with your budget, but make sure you have someone familiar enough with a mill/lathe to make sure it's in decent operating condition. A beat to death bridgeport with a ton of backlash wouldn't be ideal.

[asid61]

Originally Posted by scottandme

Not to pile on top of the previous comments, but also note that drill chucks are unable to safely sustain radial loads, even when used in a proper milling machine.

Some tiny benchtop milling machines do have morse taper spindles, but they are designed for (small) radial loads, and include a drawbar like a regular milling machine would have.

On topic - used is the way to go with your budget, but make sure you have someone familiar enough with a mill/lathe to make sure it's in decent operating condition. A beat to death bridgeport with a ton of backlash wouldn't be ideal.

Good call on the drill chucks.
On backlash: it's not a huge problem if you have a DRO and a reasonably heavy mill. I've been meaning to ask our maching mentor about tightening up the backlash on our Bridgeport, as it currently has around 0.060" of backlash. It has never been a problem for us as we only take light to medium cuts in aluminum, so as long as you're careful and don't heavy climb mill it should be fine.
I agree that somebody knowledgeable about mills/ lathes whould go with you. Take along a checklist or something at the very least. Make sure that there's no rust in the spindle or on the ways, that it's not pitted to oblivion and flat, etc.

[James3245]

Count me as a mentor who has been pleased with a cold saw.

We've been cutting (yes it is slow) aluminum for a couple of seasons without injury. We did break a blade once when the stock was not long enough to clamp properly. Because of the low rpm the incident was alarming and instructive but not particularly dangerous.

I will accept slow cuts, and higher upfront cost, to avoid the hazard (see other CD posts for scary stories of flying metal) of having anyone, especially students, cut metal with a high-speed chop saw. Not to mention the screeching.

A pneumatic rivet gun set up is relatively cheap and as posted earlier a great next tool. And quite safe.

[Oblarg]

Can anyone who's used an x-y milling vise on a drill press answer my question about edge-finding?