[FRCTop25.com]- Premiere Night 2015!

[Sperkowsky]

Top 25 celebrates the good times just not the elite few. The thing is what I like about it is they are student built. Like seriously you can't convince me 254 kids without the mentors and sponsors can make a robot even close to what they make. I'm not of the mindset that "nasa buids their robot" but I do believe they help a lot. It's remarkable what they do but honestly it doesn't belong in a high school robotics program.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Top 25 celebrates the good times just not the elite few. The thing is what I like about it is they are student built. Like seriously you can't convince me 254 kids without the mentors and sponsors can make a robot even close to what they make. I'm not of the mindset that "nasa buids their robot" but I do believe they help a lot. It's remarkable what they do but honestly it doesn't belong in a high school robotics program.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Like seriously you can't convince me 254 kids without the mentors and sponsors can make a robot even close to what they make.

You clearly have not met the 254 students or alumni. If the rules changed and suddenly all teams were forced to build a robot with only students, no mentors or sponsors, my money would still be riding on 254.

[highlander]

Dead Horse alert, lets not ruin this unrelated thread with repetitive discussion on a controversial topic.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Like seriously you can't convince me 254 kids without the mentors and sponsors can make a robot even close to what they make.

Why would anyone want to convince you of that? Mentors and sponsors helping students do more than they could on their own is a big part of what makes FIRST more than a science fair.

[Justin Montois]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

...It's remarkable what they do but honestly it doesn't belong in a high school robotics program.

It absolutely belongs in a high school robotics program. The amount of inspiration and motivation they supply is so valuable. You get better by playing against those that are better than you.

FIRST would be half the program it is today if teams like 254, 1114, 2056, 148, 67 among others weren't bringing incredible robots year after year.

Anyway, I'm glad most people seemed to enjoy Premiere Night. We look forward to our first week of voting and getting the competition season underway! Please remember to vote and remember, it's just for fun.

[g_sawchuk]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Top 25 celebrates the good times just not the elite few. The thing is what I like about it is they are student built. Like seriously you can't convince me 254 kids without the mentors and sponsors can make a robot even close to what they make. I'm not of the mindset that "nasa buids their robot" but I do believe they help a lot. It's remarkable what they do but honestly it doesn't belong in a high school robotics program.

The objective of FIRST is to build robots with mentor involvement. Although I strongly agree that many teams are very mentor built/mentor run, I strongly believe that teams like the Poofs, Simbots, Coyotes, OP Robotics etc. have just found a way to maximize their skills in mentoring students without making the robot mentor built. They just know how to teach their students. This most certainly belongs in this program. Their skills deserve recognition and congratulations, not accusations.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Karthik

You clearly have not met the 254 students or alumni. If the rules changed and suddenly all teams were forced to build a robot with only students, no mentors or sponsors, my money would still be riding on 254.

I admit I haven't and I'm not trying to start an arguement. My point was not to go after them particular but elite teams in general no student built can compete with a mentor built bot. Period.

[Abhishek R]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

My point was not to go after them particular but elite teams in general no student built can compete with a mentor built bot. Period.

Not true. Mentors are supposed to be there to help guide the students. I don't want to derail this thread, so feel free to PM me if you want counterexamples or discussion on the topic.

[Fielding S.]

So yeah, Premiere Night was awesome. Loved seeing all the videos everyone submitted. I'm glad that Breakaway was able to participate this year, and I hope we'll be making appearances for future premiere nights.

Side note: I like the way FRC Top 25 is modifying their ranking system this year. Sounds interesting!

[Anthony Galea]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I admit I haven't and I'm not trying to start an arguement. My point was not to go after them particular but elite teams in general no student built can compete with a mentor built bot. Period.

I really don't agree that a student built bot couldn't compete with a powerhouse, or what you are calling a 'mentor built bot'. Considering that I have seen teams that I am 100% sure that their students built the robot (just from going to their build space or them being able to help us in ours), that are able to be consistent contenders in their area.

For elite teams, it isn't a thing of mentors usually, its usually experience and how well these teams' students understand what works and doesn't work in FRC, and then pass their information and knowledge from upperclassmen to underclassmen.

On our team, our mentors are pretty hands-off, and the only time they help with fabrication is when we need to use certain equipment. However, they do offer great advice and insight for a validated opinion on when there is debate.

But that may not be the best way for some teams. Run your team how you want to, and we will run ours our way.

[Chris is me]

My apologies for the derailing conversation; I probably should have taken this to PMs. Great Reveal Night, I regret that we were too not-done to send in a video this year, lots of great teams this year.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I admit I haven't and I'm not trying to start an arguement. My point was not to go after them particular but elite teams in general no student built can compete with a mentor built bot. Period.

So this is a point people make all the time, that I'm sure a few dozen people will respond to with the commonly repeated, but still very valid, points. That FIRST isn't about students building robots, it's about inspiring students; that "100% mentor built" teams actually tend to be some of the 'worst' (least competitive) teams, not the best; that kids wouldn't want to *be* on a team where they didn't do anything; that constantly making these accusations undermines the sacrifice and hard work of thousands of bright students across the country every year; that FIRST is about the student-mentor partnership first and foremost; that people saying this crap are arrogant enough to think anyone better than them must be cheating.

Here's a different angle. I'm a mentor, and I know enough that I could probably try to build my own robot. I'm about to graduate with a degree in Mechanical Engineering, this year's robot is the 7th robot I've been involved with in FRC. But building robots is really hard. We don't have a FIRST Robotics Instruction Manual anywhere that tells us what the perfect designs are, or what the best intakes look like, or what the optimal strategies are. Mentors don't have some kind of secret knowledge of how to build robots that students aren't privy to. We can't do it without the whole team, especially the students.

This year, I did a lot of design work on my team. CAD is the only thing left on my team that you can truthfully say is done mostly by mentors; even so, our team's teachers are integrating robotics lessons into the CAD coursework at the school so in future years students and mentors will work side by side in every aspect. But as a designer, I couldn't even start to do work without the excellent, detailed, iterated, student-driven prototypes. Without the incredible machinists to make really intricate parts (or to tell me "Chris, you're an idiot, that's never going to work..."), the robot wouldn't exist. Without our amazing software team, including one of the brightest students I've ever had the privilege of working with, the robot would be absolute garbage this year (if we made the same design).

And even outside of the robot, we couldn't do robotics without the whole team. Who raises thousands of dollars every year to get us supplies and two regional events? The students, with some organization done by amazing parents. Who recruits vigorously every year, growing our team size from ~16ish to ~45 in a handful of seasons? Wasn't me. Who scouts, who demonstrates the robot, who prepares Chairmans, who wires, who tests... Can you really believe half a dozen professionals really have the time to do all of that, at the very top level, without burning themselves out? No, that's ridiculous. I'm burned out and I just show up for two months and draw pictures.

Honestly? There are some mentor built teams out there. But they aren't 254, 1114, etc. Those teams need the hard work of tons of mentors, parents, AND students to do absolutely everything they do at the top level. The mentor built teams tend to be teams with... awful robots. Teams you'd hate to play with, because they don't do anything. An overzealous teacher or parent considers the robot their personal playset, and shoves kids out of the pit whenever it gets so much of a scratch. And these teams never do well, because running a robotics team is too hard for just a couple of mentors. They need the students too, and this might shock you, but students who don't get to do anything aren't exactly motivated to go above and beyond to fundraise, scout, strategize, and drive the wheels off their robots. These teams are really sad to watch if you ever run into them, and ironically, lots of their students and mentors are the ones crying 'mentor built!' about the very top teams as well.

The only way my team has gotten any good at robotics, being able to consistently hit that 80% quality (at SOME point in the season) has not been by having mentors do everything; it's been by training a complete team to learn all of the skills they need to do huge tasks themselves. And then having the great privilege of amazing kids who learn everything they can, and when you think you're too tired to go back, they keep asking you for more and more, or doing their own research for the betterment of the team. The only way to do well in FRC is to inspire your kids. That's the big secret right there, everyone.

[The_ShamWOW88]

Although it's a healthy discussion, let's try to keep the "Mentor/Student" build topic on the proper thread.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...r+vs+studen t


Top25 does a great thing for the FIRST community and it's to get further recognition of your robot and team.