Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by ZackAlfakir

Sorry I haven't been following through with this thread due to build season, but as a Student, I actually teach all of the lower classmen how to program. As someone with 3 years of experience, I actually don't touch the robot code for the most part, and instead I help all of the other kids understand how to do their part.

From my experience, all you really need is dedication and determination. My Rule #1 for programming team is "All Day Errey Day" and they really believe that, and that is what makes our team sucessful.

Excellent. pretend you're a few years older now and are either in the process of getting your degree or have it. Congrats, you just described what most all mentors do. Here's your free corndog.
(though some mentors they may actively contribute to code too).

(as a side note, I hated in high school when my team leadership tried forcing me to teach others how to work with the control system. While I liked explaining it and helping others while they were interested, they wanted me to step back and let the underclassmen do most of the work. If I'm a student on a team, I want to be inspired, and I get my inspiration by doing the actual programming myself...)

[Seth Mallory]

Each team is different since the depending on the goals that the team sets for the students and the resources the team has. The following is a small listing of what is many items.

Goals for example could be to inspire, win, teach or any combination of what they want. Also in teaching what do you want to teach.

Resources include mentors, money, facilities, training time, students.

Mentors. This means how many, skill level, mindset (inspire, win, teach).
Money. How much and does it have strings.
Facilities. What tools, space, storage, or access to sponsor's facilities.
Training time. Does the team form before build and have no time to train, Is it an after school team and gets some training in the fall. Do they have a class and train year around.
Students. Is the team struggling to get members or is it more popular then the football team. Do you have students that can train the rookies in correct use of the tools and teach them how to design and build.

Now you take all of the above and much more and you make a team and that is is why there are so many different types of teams. This is why I try to not judge other teams on their program. A good robot does not mean a good program and a bad robot does not mean a bad program. If the team meets the goals set out for the students then it is a good program.

[Mr. Van]

Originally Posted by Seth Mallory

Each team is different since the depending on the goals that the team sets for the students and the resources the team has.

...

A good robot does not mean a good program and a bad robot does not mean a bad program. If the team meets the goals set out for the students then it is a good program.

This is probably the most important thing said here.

The Game (winning and losing) is primarily a game of mentors. The experience of doing the whole thing is something completely different - something we often forget to focus on here on CD with our emphasis on OPR, blue banners, trips to Einstein, etc.

- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

[philso]

Originally Posted by Mr. Van

This is probably the most important thing said here.

The Game (winning and losing) is primarily a game of mentors. The experience of doing the whole thing is something completely different - something we often forget to focus on here on CD with our emphasis on OPR, blue banners, trips to Einstein, etc.

- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

^
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This and what you do to have a positive impact in your community. That is why I think FIRST made the Chairman's Award more coveted than winning on Einstein.

[Sam_Mills]

Originally Posted by ZackAlfakir

... as a Student, I actually teach all of the lower classmen how to program. As someone with 3 years of experience, I actually don't touch the robot code for the most part, and instead I help all of the other kids understand how to do their part ...

I can appreciate your position; as a student on 11, I taught underclassmen to use Solidworks, as well as basic machining. Programming was the same, upperclassmen teaching underclassmen. There are limitations though. When I started gearbox design for example, VEXpro didn't exist, WCP was in its very early stages. Everything I learned I either taught myself using wikipedia articles, or asked mentors on teams with more experience.

Older students teaching younger students is an elegant, mutually beneficial dynamic that should be encouraged whenever possible but as I said above, there are limitations. I taught Solidworks, but I wasn't CSWA certified and there were professional conventions I knew nothing about from teaching myself.

I don't doubt that when you get to college (assuming you are doing Comp. Sci.), you will be ahead of the majority of your peers. You can't claim though to have the depth of knowledge to teach other students to write camera code for a 5 ball 2012 auton that is 85% accurate. If you could write code that could get you 70% of the way there, and have a mentor assist and debug the remaining 30% to get it working, would you honestly say "No, I don't want that. A mentor helping me would devalue the learning experience more than the gained knowledge and inspiration from winning could offset"?

I don't mean to come across as snarky, just consider the effects on the student base in each hypothetical situation before deciding one is better.

[Chinske4296]

In my opinion, I find it really frustrating to walk by a pit and see students standing there while the mentors do all the work. It is also frustrating to see teams videos of them working and you see more mentors working on the robot than students, or a Chairmans video with 1 student shown the whole time and about 15-20 different mentors.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Chinske4296

In my opinion, I find it really frustrating to walk by a pit and see students standing there while the mentors do all the work. It is also frustrating to see teams videos of them working and you see more mentors working on the robot than students, or a Chairmans video with 1 student shown the whole time and about 15-20 different mentors.

Why is it frustrating?
Is it because you think in this "mentor-based competition" that maybe someone with mentors is at an advantage?

Oh wow...sounds like maybe they want you to use mentors?

Also, I've seen plenty of terrible "mentor built" robots, and plenty of awesome "student built" robots...whatever those even mean to you.

[BenjaminWard]

Originally Posted by Chinske4296

In my opinion, I find it really frustrating to walk by a pit and see students standing there while the mentors do all the work. It is also frustrating to see teams videos of them working and you see more mentors working on the robot than students, or a Chairmans video with 1 student shown the whole time and about 15-20 different mentors.

Exactly, this is what ZackAlfakir and I were talking about. It is all well and good if the students are being "inspired" by the success of the mentors, but it is important that they learn what they are doing, which they can only do by actually doing it. As in a Chairman's video with only one student shown vs a large amount of mentors, the achievements recorded there should not reflect the work of the mentors but rather what the students have achieved.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by BenjaminWard

Exactly, this is what ZackAlfakir and I were talking about. It is all well and good if the students are being "inspired" by the success of the mentors, but it is important that they learn what they are doing, which they can only do by actually doing it. As in a Chairman's video with only one student shown vs a large amount of mentors, the achievements recorded there should not reflect the work of the mentors but rather what the students have achieved.

This mission of this program is to inspire students to pursue an education or career in STEM, it is not to teach them. Teaching already happens in school; teaching happens during the process of inspiration; it is a byproduct of this program, but it is not one of the goals.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by BenjaminWard

As in a Chairman's video with only one student shown vs a large amount of mentors, the achievements recorded there should not reflect the work of the mentors but rather what the students have achieved.

How is it that you know what the students did vs. what the mentors did on that team? If you're not on the team, you don't know them or what they do. Maybe interviews with their mentors were the point of the video, to show how proud those people were of what their students could accomplish. Then again, I'm only guessing, because it's not my team and I don't know the answer.

My best advice on this topic, as always, is to stay in your own lane & worry about your own team. You can't possibly have everything figured out to the point where you have free time to pick apart other teams.

[James1902]

Originally Posted by BenjaminWard

Exactly, this is what ZackAlfakir and I were talking about. It is all well and good if the students are being "inspired" by the success of the mentors, but it is important that they learn what they are doing, which they can only do by actually doing it. As in a Chairman's video with only one student shown vs a large amount of mentors, the achievements recorded there should not reflect the work of the mentors but rather what the students have achieved.

This interview with Dean Kamen might help make a point that some have brought up in this thread: FIRST is not in the business of education.

If your team values the educational aspect of the program (as i'm sure most teams do) that's great! But whether or not other teams, in your opinion, value it as much as you do is not something that FIRST seems to be concerned with.

It's not just well and good that students are being inspired, it's the whole dang point.

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by Chinske4296

It is also frustrating to see teams videos of them working and you see more mentors working on the robot than students, or a Chairmans video with 1 student shown the whole time and about 15-20 different mentors.

If you know a team that has a 20:1 mentor-to-student ratio, you should give me their contact information right now. Recruiting mentors is one of the hardest things for teams to do well. Right now, my team is at about 1:4 mentor-to-student ratio, and we are the envy of many nearby teams. I even know teams that have a 1:20 ratio. So if there is a team out there that is 400 times better at recruiting mentors, they are clearly doing a much better job at running their program than any team I know, and I would like to learn everything I can about why they are so successful.

[The_ShamWOW88]

Is this happening again?

What works for your team works for you.

[Tammyo]

Our team is a student led club in which the veteran members pass down their knowledge to the newcomers. The experienced members teach the rookies what they have learned and may seek the mentors assistance on topics beyond their expertise. The goal of our team is for the students to be actively involved while mentors give their guidance.