The math of the cans...

[asid61]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Nobody stopped 469 in autonomous on Einstein.
469 didn't win Einstein.

Even with an overwhelming strategy, you still have to execute. Getting the cans alone is not a chokehold strategy.

I take this quote as one example of all of the similar quotes in this thread; yours just happens to be short.

I disagree with this viewpoint because this game is totally different from 2010. There is a limited number of cans and totes, to the point where if all the cans are acquired at the highest levels it is likely that no other can grabbers can compete.
I did my math with something that solely grabs cans. Add a drivetrain and a can topper and it becomes unstoppable.
I will elaborate on this later.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by asid61

I take this quote as one example of all of the similar quotes in this thread; yours just happens to be short.

I disagree with this viewpoint because this game is totally different from 2010. There is a limited number of cans and totes, to the point where if all the cans are acquired at the highest levels it is likely that no other can grabbers can compete.
I did my math with something that solely grabs cans. Add a drivetrain and a can topper and it becomes unstoppable.
I will elaborate on this later.

While this is correct, it is only applicable at the highest levels of play. Until then the value of the RCs on the step is very low ... especially if they go unused.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by asid61

I take this quote as one example of all of the similar quotes in this thread; yours just happens to be short.

I disagree with this viewpoint because this game is totally different from 2010. There is a limited number of cans and totes, to the point where if all the cans are acquired at the highest levels it is likely that no other can grabbers can compete.
I did my math with something that solely grabs cans. Add a drivetrain and a can topper and it becomes unstoppable.
I will elaborate on this later.

You're missing the point. I wasn't disputing the importance of the cans from a game theory perspective. I'm simply pointing out you still have to execute after obtaining the cans. Unlike controlling the goals in 2002, acquiring the cans is not a chokehold on its own. The cans AND scoring points are a chokehold. If you don't execute in the scoring department, you don't win.

Obviously the teams at the highest level of play should be able to execute in almost every match. However, almost every match is not the same as every match. Mistakes still happen, sometimes crippling ones. Look no further than the Einstein finals in 2010 for proof of that.

The alliances that win the battle for the center step will undoubtedly have an incredibly high winning percentage. However, that winning percentage will not be 100%

[asid61]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

While this is correct, it is only applicable at the highest levels of play. Until then the value of the RCs on the step is very low ... especially if they go unused.

"Highest levels of play" is variable.
For example, this year we are going to Utah, SVR, and Championships (probably for the lottery, hopefully if we win). Utah may not be as challenging as SVR, although I don't know what powerhouse teams are attending. SVR ahs 971, 254, 1678, sometimes some of the texas teams. It's very competitive IME. And of course Champs will be interesting.
So depending on the competition, it changes the play. At SVR, for example, I would definitely play a tote-and-flopper, maybe with a wimpy elevator for can topping. I don't know if our team could support it at Utah, and so I would ahve to let one go.
At Champs it's a pretty good chance at victory IMO.
The purpose of a bot like this is to win, not to seed high. Sure, it's a gamble, but a traditional bot has to undergo far more fabrication and testing, as it has to be a multipurpose bot. But a tote-flopper with can topping abilities has to only be loosely tested because it has to lift only 8lbs at once. Add a capable drivetrain and the only thing that has to be tested is the grabber itself- and you have weeks to perfect that. So the odds of winning, even for a middling team otherwise (resources, mentors, etc.) are actually quite good.
Driver practice is much less because they simply have to avoid stacks and top off cans at a rate of 6 or 7 per match. One repetitive action over and over again.

[asid61]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Common, who doesn't like seeing an entire season decided in less than a quarter of a second?

Just the last match of it.
Consider:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmyph...ature=youtu.be
Even if it's sped up, it's definitely possible to reach those speeds and beyond with the infinite motors this year.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Common, who doesn't like seeing an entire season decided in less than a quarter of a second?

I loved 2011 too!!!!!!

At least this year the quarter of a second is at the beginning of the match, not the end. Saves you about two minutes that you can spend going to the concessions stand or something.

[faust1706]

Originally Posted by bduddy

At least this year the quarter of a second is at the beginning of the match, not the end. Saves you about two minutes that you can spend going to the concessions stand or something.

That will be so disheartening: making it to that level of play, and it coming down to the less than the first second of the match to know if you won or not. I don't know of any other sport/activity that is similar to this.

And to be on the other side, if we get those 4 bins from the middle, it comes down to how well have you practiced as a driver. There is literally nothing the other team can do to prevent you from scoring, they can only attempt to outscore you, which won't happen at the top level of play.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by faust1706

That will be so disheartening: making it to that level of play, and it coming down to the less than the first second of the match to know if you won or not. I don't know of any other sport/activity that is similar to this.

You've never heard of drag racing?

[faust1706]

Originally Posted by MrForbes

You've never heard of drag racing?

Derp. You're right. An interesting aspect with the game being decided within the first second is that it involves zero human interaction when the game starts.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by JohnSchneider

start wind tunnel testing?

Have I underestimated you guys?

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Common, who doesn't like seeing an entire season decided in less than a quarter of a second?

We all signed up for this drag race, right?

[Whippet]

Forget wind tunnel testing, we need to start looking at the relativistic effects that could be caused by time dilation at high can grabbing velocities...

Seriously, don't you guys have a regional to be getting ready for or something? Get some sleep.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by faust1706

I hope on einstein both teams can grab all 4 bins from the middle, and they all grab them at the same time and it comes down to whose grabber is stronger.

I'm waiting to see a robot towed over the step in a tug-o-war.

[Boltman]

I asked that tug-o-war question on Gamesense after seeing all the auto can grabbers.

Cans will be HUGE in Einstein...in Elims not so much

I still think there may be fouls called over alliances "fighting" over RC's from the neutral zone but those decisions should be rare.

[Cash4587]

I really think at this point having the ability to grab cans in auto will just make you 1) a more appealing robot to scouting teams 2) prevent the other alliance from potentially scoring those cans which will be good for you even if you don't score them yourself 3) Make you more valuable in auton to robots who have a 3 tote auton, or 148 who can get all 3 cans and all 3 totes.

Ultimately, I think grabbing all 4 cans in auton with one robot will prove to be too slow unless someone can get all 4 crazy fast like 3310. I will be willing to bet that on Einstein, if divisions get lucky, the winners will be an alliance that can grab all four cans with 2 robots, while the third does a 3 tote auton, or even just drives forward to the auto zone. I am not too sure yet depending on alliance selections and the depth of the divisions.

[lynca]

The CAN race is the only thing that keeps this game from a glorified skills challenge.

The GDC will improve the overall game by allowing ONLY 1 team from each alliance to touch the cans.
(restriction only applies in the autonomous period)