The math of the cans...

[JohnSchneider]

Originally Posted by lynca

The CAN race is the only thing that keeps this game from a glorified skills challenge.

The GDC will improve the overall game by allowing ONLY 1 team from each alliance to touch the cans (in the autonomous period)

Don't agree. That's a huge change in design philosophy.

[lynca]

The GDC will improve the overall game by allowing ONLY 1 team from each alliance to touch the step cans
(restriction only in the autonomous period)

Originally Posted by JohnSchneider

Don't agree. That's a huge change in design philosophy.

The design fundamentals are still similar with only 1 robot pulling Cans in Autonomous. The only real design difference is the ability to pick up 2 or 4 cans.

However, teams don't have to spend the entire season up to champs trying to get 0.1 second faster. Instead, teams might spend more time trying to get all 4 cans. It keeps the competition from turning into a throwback mini-bot race.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by lynca

The GDC will improve the overall game by allowing ONLY 1 team from each alliance to touch the cans
(restriction only in the autonomous period)



The design fundamentals are still similar with only 1 robot pulling Cans in Autonomous. The only real design difference is the ability to pick up 2 or 4 cans.

However, teams don't have to spend the entire season up to champs trying to get 0.1 second faster. Instead, teams might spend more time trying to get all 4 cans. It keeps the competition from turning into a throwback mini-bot race.

No limiting it to one team makes it worse. The arms race to 2 cans is manageable by far more teams than the arms race to 4 cans. If they dramatically change the rules like that they would have needed to do so at the beginning of the seaosn. A rule change like that changes the value of a lot of designs. Limiting to 1 team would put the most crucial part of the game in the hands of just a few capable team. The 2 can race as it stands should be doable by a far greater number of teams. Also remember that the GDC has given the placement advantage to the lower seeded team in eliminations. In my view their goal is for most matches to be a 5 RC vs 5 RC battle and everything may be decided by the upside down totes, totes on the step, and the noodles.

[Jared Russell]

I think something along the lines of "any robot may touch no more than one can that is in contact with the step at any given time during autonomous mode" would have been a better rule. It would have GREATLY increased the strategic aspects of robot placement, autonomous strategy, design (you could still build a robot to get multiple cans, but it must do them serially rather than in parallel), and still rewarded teams for iterating on the fastest can grabber.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by Jared Russell

I think something along the lines of "any robot may touch no more than one can that is in contact with the step at any given time during autonomous mode" would have been a better rule. It would have GREATLY increased the strategic aspects of robot placement, autonomous strategy, design (you could still build a robot to get multiple cans, but it must do them serially rather than in parallel), and still rewarded teams for iterating on the fastest can grabber.

Yes I agree that would have made a more interesting game. Allowing alliances to choose to have 3 robots grab cans instead of just 2. I think this would have led to very hard calls by the referee when a robot hit two RCs in quick succession and just knocks them instead of grabbing them it hard be hard to tell if they were ever touching both at the same time.

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

Yes I agree that would have made a more interesting game. Allowing alliances to choose to have 3 robots grab cans instead of just 2. I think this would have led to very hard calls by the referee when a robot hit two RCs in quick succession and just knocks them instead of grabbing them it hard be hard to tell if they were ever touching both at the same time.

Yeah, I was just spitballing. I think there would be ways to fix that (perhaps even as simple as "you can only touch one of the center 4 cans during auto mode").

[lynca]

Originally Posted by Jared Russell

I think something along the lines of "any robot may touch no more than one can that is in contact with the step at any given time during autonomous mode" would have been a better rule. It would have GREATLY increased the strategic aspects of robot placement, autonomous strategy, design (you could still build a robot to get multiple cans, but it must do them serially rather than in parallel), and still rewarded teams for iterating on the fastest can grabber.

This rule sounds more reasonable.
The GDC probably won't make the change, but here's hoping for offseason rule changes !

Originally Posted by Jared Russell;

Considering that the can race requires no tact or guile, just a really fast mechanism, this game is still just a glorified skills challenge.

Agreed, the Recycle Rush skills challenge is a huge swing away from Aerial Assist teamwork centric game.

The GDC will be disappointed to find that the Rich will get Richer and the underdogs won't even make the elimination rounds.

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by lynca

Agreed, the Recycle Rush skills challenge is a huge swing away from Aerial Assist teamwork centric game.

I disagree on both counts. While Aerial Assist was presented as a teamwork-centric game, at the regional seeding and even much of our regional elimination level, there were few assist points scored compared to the number of points prevented by defense, because it was so much easier to get in the way than to gain possession of the ball.

On the other hand, in Recycle Rush moderate-power teams that can work as a team can score more points together than they can separately, especially if they have complementary capabilities; there's no requirement that each stack be built by exactly one robot. I think that one noodling canner and two tote stackers that can execute their tasks well can score much more together than three robots that can do both fairly. I believe this will be a game of specialization and teamwork at both low and high levels.

Further, smart alliance selection for elims/playoffs will be based more on teamwork capability than seeding rank or OPR.

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by lynca

The CAN race is the only thing that keeps this game from a glorified skills challenge.

Considering that the can race requires no tact or guile, just a really fast mechanism, this game is still just a glorified skills challenge.

[Boltman]

This game is all about EFFICIENCY and then skills.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Boltman

This game is all about EFFICIENCY and then skills.

I completely disagree.

This is a game of precision. A fast efficient machine that is not precise in it's placement and movement will be more of a hindrance to an alliance than a slower one that can precisely build stacks.

That being said, a fast efficient, and precise robot (with a skilled drive team) will be in the running for regional champs this year.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

I completely disagree.

This is a game of precision. A fast efficient machine that is not precise in it's placement and movement will be more of a hindrance to an alliance than a slower one that can precisely build stacks.

That being said, a fast efficient, and precise robot (with a skilled drive team) will be in the running for regional champs this year.

135 seconds... an efficient robot (that scores points and improves stacks or top RCs) trumps a more precise one that takes longer to do same scoring task IMO

You only have to be "so precise"... more precision is a waste of time with only 135 seconds to build stacks and top them.

That being said I am encouraging our driver to pause a second or two to make sure his move is solid. Because every mistake wastes time and 135 seconds is very limited.

You watch the championships will have efficient robots as the main trait. Sure they will be precise enough.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Boltman

You watch the championships will have efficient robots as the main trait. Sure they will be precise enough.

Agreed, but for week 1 precision will be key IM(NS)HO.

[GeeTwo]

If you go with a "pure" can grabber (that is, ignore totes and depend on alliance partners), you are unlikely to seed high at regionals, due to the low numbers of stacks to place them on. This means you'd be shooting to be selected as part of an alliance. To be most attractive, you'd need to not only grab the cans, but be ready to either score them yourself, or orient them so that any prospective alliance partners can score them (some only use them upright, some prefer them horizontal). If you can carry all four cans over to an HP station in one trip to get them quickly noodled, that would help as well.

Our team has a landfill-mining robot with capability to put a vertical RC at level 6 (or at least 5). Other things being anywhere close to equal, a can-grabber with these features would likely be our first alliance selection.