Week 2 Live Discussion

[dellagd]

Did anyone watching Pioneer Valley (NE) see what the match replay of SF6 was for?

[John Retkowski]

I believe our teams alliance played that match. There were significant field communication issues that hindered both sides auto. Every team was in the question box at the end of the match discussing with the head ref.

[Boltman]

My only thought is week 2 is when we earned a spot to the Champs as rooks last year.

Now in 2015 its possibly earning it in weeks 5 and/or 6 with only 2 weeks to plan a trip back should we be successful again.

Last year we had 3 extra weeks to get it all together and it still seemed to go so fast just getting everything together for that team trip to STL with all the planning involved. So much to do amazed the teams do it in such short windows.

Potential 2 week turnaround to STL is really quick this year...thought of last minute air and booked hotels argh

Oh well hope we get to find out. Its was so fun last year. Just my personal thoughts on week 2.

Interested also in Central Valley this week.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Boltman

My only thought is week 2 is when we earned a spot to the Champs as rooks last year.

Now in 2015 its possibly earning it in weeks 5 and/or 6 with only 2 weeks to plan a trip back should we be successful again.

Last year we had 3 extra weeks to get it all together and it still seemed to go so fast just getting everything together for that team trip to STL with all the planning involved.

Potential 2 week turnaround to STL is really quick this year...and last minute air and booked hotels argh

Oh well hope we get to find out.

Welcome to week 7 invites. It sounds silly, but plan ahead if you feel confident.

[dradel]

anyone know if and where there is a live stream for ne district pioneer valley?

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by dradel

anyone know if and where there is a live stream for ne district pioneer valley?

NE First:
Springfield Pioneer Valley Event District (3/6-3/7) - Blue Stream
http://www.twitch.tv/nefirst_blue

North Shore Reading Event District (3/7-3/8) - Red Stream
http://www.twitch.tv/nefirst_red

[who716]

at NE pioneer valley, showed an example of what extensive scouting can do. on Friday 2168 wasn't highly impressive, they struggled alot. many team clearly ended up cutting them from there scouting that night, we always give teams at-least one shot on Saturday for improvement. there first match out on Saturday was impressive and was 100% better then Friday so we continued scouting them and by the end of Qualifying they were 3 on our list of teams.

come alliance selections we were a number 8 alliance and 2168 was still available for our third pick, we told our alliance captain that this was an absolute steal to grab as a partner but they had no info on them, and as the alliance captain they made the decision to pick someone else. 2168 ended up being picked as the 3rd member of the 6 alliance.
2168 ended up being the only team at the event to get a 3 tote stack autonomous which they showed off for the first time in eliminations, a well as being able to cap up too 5 high which wasn't previously shown. 2168 ended up being THE CRUCIAL piece of this alliance and propelled them to a blue banner. for sure on of the best robots at the event.
for a team with this capability to fall to a late 3rd round pick goes to show teams shouldn't stop scouting Friday night.

GREAT job to 2168 well deserved blue-banner for a very very very long weekend for you guys! looking forward to competing at Rhode island with you in a couple weeks.

[eddie12390]

Coopertition is why I have trust issues.

[Gdeaver]

Week 2 is over. So the question I have is --- Have the platform RC wars begun? Were there any districts or regional where in eliminations or qualifications Battles for the platform Rc's happened. We had the beginning skirmishes at Hatboro-Horsham week 1.

[Navid Shafa]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

Week 2 is over. So the question I have is --- Have the platform RC wars begun? Were there any districts or regional where in eliminations or qualifications Battles for the platform Rc's happened. We had the beginning skirmishes at Hatboro-Horsham week 1.

Yes and No. There were plenty of attempts at it and lots of RC's getting removed from the step. The closest thing to a "war" this week was likely in Arkansas when 1986 attempted to steal 2 in auto and follow-up with an immediate 2 more in tele-op. They were able to get 3/4 in both Final matches, but their alliance just didn't quite have the fire-power to stop the dominant #1 seeded alliance. Arkansas certainly lived up to the hype.

Not sure if we'll see that much in terms of RC wars for a few weeks, perhaps nothing really game-changing even until District Champs...

[Michael Corsetto]

Any game where you are better off not putting alliance partners on the field is a bad game.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Any game where you are better off not putting alliance partners on the field is a bad game.

What do you think are the contributing factors and to what degree of importance are each of these factors? In no particular order, this is where I see the issues:

-Disparity of ability: even with growing COTS market for effective robot design, some of the COTS parts fit design paradigms that do not exist in this game, or at least do not align with successful strategies of Recycle Rush. This leads to more manufactured parts by fewer experienced teams, more things that break or even worse, don't work, and budgets with little recourse to rectify either.

-Lack of fallback strategies: Recycle Rush is not a game where "fallback" strategies exist. Third partners with broken/inefficient/risky (I'll get to that later) robots do not have a role they can fill for the alliance except to not exist at all in some cases.

-Your Own Worst Enemy: Litter excluded, the game does not provide any real defense except for gravity and the incompetence/bad luck of yourself and your partners. By removing the lowest common denominator robot from play in some cases, their physical presence not being on the field eliminates variables and minimizes risk. For higher seeded alliances that are able to capitalize on the disparate play of "the field" they are up against, it makes more sense to minimize risk if the game looks in hand without them.

-Very limited field of play: this amplifies the other issues. Whereas the field of Aerial Assist was 95% open and flat, the Recycle Rush field loathes the concept of uninterrupted carpet. With two of the largest, heaviest, and most rigid game pieces in FRC history, half the field cordoned off, a good 1/4 of the field you can use covered in the bumps, plus the 2 feet+ of the landfill zone, there is barely any room for a third team to operate well if the other two alliance partners can run an efficient and successful enough operation by themselves.

There are other issues but I'm trying to get other work done and staring at CAD at 3:30 AM local time so I'll come back later

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

...

You're a smart guy Wil. Well put.

The disparity is huge. I am not a fan.

-Mike

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

You're a smart guy Wil. Well put.

The disparity is huge. I am not a fan.

-Mike

It's a combination of firsthand experience from across the spectrum. We usually try to design something that can take a kitbot to a contributor at our events (ramps in 2014, wedges in 2013 and 2012, an army of minibots in 2011) but a) we've been too busy trying to fix our own stuff because some things were just a little off and now we're up a creek without a paddle, and b) there is no real passive assembly to make an alliance partner a contributor unless I cut a tote in half, tie a string to their frame, and rip out their breakers so they don't knock anything over (not trying to tick anyone off here, just pointing out a very poignant example).

Inspiration-Catch It!

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

You're a smart guy Wil. Well put.

The disparity is huge. I am not a fan.

-Mike

The disparity is certainly huge. I'd like to say it's not as bad as 2011, but if you remove litter points, 2015 scores are looking similar to 2011 scores. I didn't think we'd see a game with such a huge disparity between teams like 2011 had in this era of Robot in 3 days and Build Blitz. I think the GDC's design of the chute door (making totes come in every possible configuration other than right side up) is a major contributor to this disparity. Robot in 3 days did a great job of coming up with nice, simple manipulator and lift ideas, but teams had to figure out how to use it with the chute that doesn't want to behave nicely. It is very difficult to build a working manipulator for this game without having the space and resources to replicate the landfill setup (expensive considering the cost of game pieces] and/or chute (it has to behave like the proper chute too).

In 2012, you were given foam basketballs, and they roll around while your robot picks them up and shoots them. In 2013, you load your frisbees into your robot and shoot them into a goal. In 2014, you just gather a large exercise ball and launch it. None of these games had game pieces lying in a specific orientation, and they were not immoveable without an active roller intake. 2013 has elements like the human player station, but the game pieces were small and simple enough to build your robot around the human player station. This year's game is a great engineering and design challenge....for veteran teams who can handle it.