(Lack of) Value in the Regional Model

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

I can't remember the times since I am not a CSA or FTA, but isn't it something like >= 30 seconds for bootup and >= 50 seconds for connection to establish for the router, or are my numbers backwards or totally wrong?

Sounds close. If the teams turned on their robots the minute they sat them on the field they could get out of transport configuration and align them and often exit the field before they completed the field connection. Some robots could not be safely turned on, or would not operate correctly, if they were turned on the minute they were sat on the field. So those teams held up the process (safety and correct operation are very important so the delay was reasonable).

If we could accelerate the field connection after the radio ready the match resets could save 1 minute and over the course of 60 or more matches that adds up.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

I can't remember the times since I am not a CSA or FTA, but isn't it something like >= 30 seconds for bootup and >= 50 seconds for connection to establish for the router, or are my numbers backwards or totally wrong?

From my experience at Waterbury week 1, the main delay was the driver station software sometimes not connecting to the field, which was blamed on mDNS. They had us enable/disable network adapters and restart the driver station application to get it to connect. The problem appeared to happen frequently when we tethered to the robot with the laptop while in queue, then unplugged and went straight to the field.

The problem also happens in reverse-going from field to tethered mode doesn't work with restarts, reset, and long delays.


When all worked well, match times weren't too bad because many teams turned on their robots before placing them out on the field.

[EricLeifermann]

As someone who started in the regional system then moved to Michigan and fought the District system for several reasons(feel free to look at my old posts on the topic) and then moved back to the regional system. I miss the district system. A well run district competition is almost indistinguishable from a full blown regional. The district system allows those with smaller budgets to get more play, when they might only get 7-10 matches in the regional system. The district system also allows teams to qualify for championships who might not have qualified had they been in the regional system, without diluting the talent pool at champs.

On the whole those who think districts will ruin the experience(me in the past) have never competed in the district system and don't truly get why people love it.

[Sunshine]

Sorry Billfred, been to IRI once and only once. For the same reason I tried stating earlier. Don't like the bleacher/cafeteria environment. It felt like a high school volleyball event (nothing wrong with that) versus a Regional like Wisconsin where it feels like a really big deal to students and parents. Different strokes for different folks. (Still have fond memories of Atlanta, loved it there, more than St. Louis)

IMHO FIRST has always been different, special and unique. The arena experience is part of this. I don't want to become just another gym experience. Nor do my sponsors I think.

Some of our sponsors give us 2-5k. I fear that we would loose some of this support if they thought it was just another high school event. When we invite them to our regional events they mention how empressed they are. I don't see any high school sports teams getting the outside sponsor support we get.

I'd like to hear from those who made the switch and had major sponsors. Did they stick with you after attending districts?

Kevin, not sure why you reference your team performance? I nor anyone else mentioned it. Gotta ask. Are you totally against Regionals now? Or if they give you 1-2 more matches and judges you'll be happy?

[Kevin Kolodziej]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Kevin, not sure why you reference your team performance? I nor anyone else mentioned it. Gotta ask. Are you totally against Regionals now? Or if they give you 1-2 more matches and judges you'll be happy?

Your earlier post questioned whether our experience would have been better had we had one more match. Yes. That's the whole point - the team experience. Experience and performance often go hand in hand, but this has nothing to do with our performance. Its about our experience.

I was curious when we only had 9 matches instead of 10 if other reigonals this year were having fewer matches as well. Thats when I found the large disparity between Virginia and Orlando. While that was the catalyst to start this thread, the ideas in this thread are nothing new and I've been asking these questions privately to individuals for years. I have been in favor of districts for several years. Am I against regionals? They are better than nothing....but that doesn't mean I have to like them.

You should bring your team to RoboFest and see how much fun a small event can be. We have no cafeterias or gymnasiums.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

IMHO FIRST has always been different, special and unique. The arena experience is part of this. I don't want to become just another gym experience. Nor do my sponsors I think.

Some of our sponsors give us 2-5k. I fear that we would loose some of this support if they thought it was just another high school event. When we invite them to our regional events they mention how empressed they are. I don't see any high school sports teams getting the outside sponsor support we get.

I'd like to hear from those who made the switch and had major sponsors. Did they stick with you after attending districts?

What is your definition of major? We have not lost any sponsors because of a switch to districts -- our largest sponsors continue their enthusiastic support, but our largest individual sponsor is on the order of the registration fee.

I get that something is lost when you switch from a real venue to a high school gym. BUT, the robots get so much better! Particularly at the second event, what was an alliance captain performance at event #1 becomes a middle of the pack performance at event #2.

At least 12 matches per event, and 24 total is huge -- it at least TRIPLES the amount of driver experience the average team got when I was in high school, and it shows.

In my experience, the energy from the fact that robots are so much better at scoring points more than makes up for the fact you are in a high school gym. And in the PNW, the PNW video crew does a better job than the pros used to do back in the day!

In my opinion, the value proposition is definitely in favor of Districts. I wouldn't want my money paying for a fancy arena*, I would want my money paying for world class employees I can hire in the future. And in the District model, students get more out of the FIRST experience. They get to go to two events. They get a chance to fix their robot, and watch their fixes work! In the regional model, a small obscure issue could sideline you for 4 matches, 50% of the event, and totally eliminate you from alliance selection. In the district model, even if that issue takes an event to troubleshoot, you still have 12 matches to shine, be selected, and end on a high note. The events are smaller, so they are more likely to feel the thrill of alliance selection, winning, and the pangs of defeat. It is so much easier to get your students inspired for the next year when they have those experiences, and you can watch it work!

And the real kicker -- you've still got the District Championship which is the class of the traditional Regional and the world-class robots of the District in one place to really knock their socks off!

*I know that none of the registration fee typically pays for the event, but most people don't.

[Katie_UPS]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Kevin, not sure why you reference your team performance? I nor anyone else mentioned it. Gotta ask. Are you totally against Regionals now? Or if they give you 1-2 more matches and judges you'll be happy?

I'm not sure why you are singling out Kevin when many other people agree with him.

Not speaking for Kevin or anyone else, but I don't think its about the extra match, but more about consistency.

The Virginia Regional and the Orlando regional both had 64 teams. Doing some basic number crunching, the average team number (and median) of Orlando was higher (and significantly at that) than the average/median team age of Virginia:

Orlando                                             Virginia
Average Team #: 2962 (7 years old)   Average Team #: 2361(8 years old)
Median Team #: 3087(7 years old)     Median Team #: 1968(10 years old)

Orlando had 6 rookies, and Virginia had 4. If anything, one could argue Virginia had more experienced teams and should expect their regional to run smoother/faster because everyone there has been doing it longer. But instead, despite being the same size and older, Virginia had less matches.

Compared, the Wisconsin regional had four less teams, 90 matches (Orlando had 107), and had comparable average/median team numbers to Orlando (ave/med: 2790(7 years old)/2856(7 years old)), and only 3 rookies, so its hard to find reason as to why there are less matches.

Orlando			Virginia			Wisonsin	
ave Team#: 2962 	ave Team #: 2361	ave Team #: 2790
med team#: 3087.5	med team #: 1968	med team #: 2856.5
# of rookies: 6		# of rookies: 4		# of rookies: 3
64 teams	               64 teams	               60 teams
107 matches             86 matches	        90 matches

EDIT: I originally included a list of all the teams in attendance at the regionals

[MikLast]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

IMHO FIRST has always been different, special and unique. The arena experience is part of this. I don't want to become just another gym experience. Nor do my sponsors I think.

Some of our sponsors give us 2-5k. I fear that we would loose some of this support if they thought it was just another high school event. When we invite them to our regional events they mention how empressed they are. I don't see any high school sports teams getting the outside sponsor support we get.

I'd like to hear from those who made the switch and had major sponsors. Did they stick with you after attending districts?

Look at Skunkworks. They have Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Alaska Airlines, they are pretty big sponsors.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by MikLast

Look at Skunkworks. They have Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Alaska Airlines, they are pretty big sponsors.

125 - UTC, BAE, Textron, PTC, Northeastern University and National Grid... I view it as far easier to get sponsors in district system. More chances to showcase the bot = more chances to get sponsors.

[cglrcng]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Sorry Billfred, been to IRI once and only once. For the same reason I tried stating earlier. Don't like the bleacher/cafeteria environment. It felt like a high school volleyball event (nothing wrong with that) versus a Regional like Wisconsin where it feels like a really big deal to students and parents. Different strokes for different folks. (Still have fond memories of Atlanta, loved it there, more than St. Louis)

IMHO FIRST has always been different, special and unique. The arena experience is part of this. I don't want to become just another gym experience. Nor do my sponsors I think.

Some of our sponsors give us 2-5k. I fear that we would loose some of this support if they thought it was just another high school event. When we invite them to our regional events they mention how empressed they are. I don't see any high school sports teams getting the outside sponsor support we get.

I'd like to hear from those who made the switch and had major sponsors. Did they stick with you after attending districts?

Kevin, not sure why you reference your team performance? I nor anyone else mentioned it. Gotta ask. Are you totally against Regionals now? Or if they give you 1-2 more matches and judges you'll be happy?

You must understand a regional event in one place is not a regional event in another...We just competed in a Regional event we compete in every year...Yes Hamilton High School in Chandler AZ (AZ East Regional). Stadium Gym bleacher seating.

And this Week 5 event is the NV Regionals in Las Vegas, NV...While it is a Stadium location, we are in an internal large event hall, again bleacher seating large open air high ceilinged event hall...The experience is virtually the same, except the pits have much higher ceilings.

Las Vegas Regionals used to be held 5~6 yrs. ago at the UNLV events center (lots more money to rent), and that had actual Basketball Stadium event seating (not bleachers type).

It depends on location across the country...But, many Regionals today have bleacher type seating, and many are held in High Scool Gyms too (not just District events), is what I was attempting to convey.

[cglrcng]

What made me first notice the item at all (because in both regionals I listed above), and that we attend every year because they are closest and we have agreements mainly for lower cost hosted team housing....Is because we always have about 10 Q matches.

This year that jumped without explanation to 12...I wondered why, and then I was on the FIRST Stats site and started looking at many different Regionals...Found from 10~12 matches each Regional was norm, then I brought up Virginia 8, then Waterloo 13....Fewer Teams/Robots more Q Matches.....More Teams/Robots fewer Q Matches, then started looking at the data and QPA's and saw the implicit differences in the data the high teams and the lower teams (call that the Inflation/Deflation factor), have on the QPA Data, and the differences in each event.

If you shine huge, w/ this years format change, you inflate and affect everyones QPA scores, likewise if you stub your toe often, you will tend to deflate the QPA's (though on a lesser scale if the High shiners are on your alliance)...Not much matter at Virgina (only 8 chances to do either, but Waterloo...13 chances to do so). That's huge.

And I realized after looking at the published OPR's today (and comparing multiple events), that issue is not corrected for in the figuring of those OPR's any more than the QPA's. (I don't know how you can compare some that played 1/3 more matches, to someone playing 1/3 less matches)....Or, correct for a 1/3 difference.

The data is not reliable...But, many will rely on it and still do the comparisons all year long. Kevin's Team Value in $$$$'s is also very viable on the subject for the same reasons.

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Sorry Billfred, been to IRI once and only once. For the same reason I tried stating earlier. Don't like the bleacher/cafeteria environment. It felt like a high school volleyball event (nothing wrong with that) versus a Regional like Wisconsin where it feels like a really big deal to students and parents. Different strokes for different folks. (Still have fond memories of Atlanta, loved it there, more than St. Louis)

IMHO FIRST has always been different, special and unique. The arena experience is part of this. I don't want to become just another gym experience. Nor do my sponsors I think.

Some of our sponsors give us 2-5k. I fear that we would loose some of this support if they thought it was just another high school event. When we invite them to our regional events they mention how empressed they are. I don't see any high school sports teams getting the outside sponsor support we get.

I'd like to hear from those who made the switch and had major sponsors. Did they stick with you after attending districts?

Kevin, not sure why you reference your team performance? I nor anyone else mentioned it. Gotta ask. Are you totally against Regionals now? Or if they give you 1-2 more matches and judges you'll be happy?

I rise in opposition to this idea. I honestly could care less about the AV equipment, what type of seating is in the stands, etc. For me, robots are the thing. And IRI has robot, great ones and in higher densities than any place (even more than the FiM Distict Championships - which is saying something).

Speaking of the FiM District Championships, I honestly think that is where the money for AV, stadiums, etc. is worth the expense. Move the Districts down in cost even if it means giving up a bit of the Show Business aspect of things while moving the District Championships up that same scale. I think this is the best of both worlds. It makes FIRST more affordable and more accessible to teams (by having low cost, local venues to compete in) while it makes getting the The District Championships something teams strive for and worth remembering once they reach that goal.

I know I am sounding like a District Model Fanboy, but honestly, I don't care because I believe that the District Model is the way FIRST gets us where we want to go: FIRST Robotics = Something Every High School Just Does.

Dr. Joe J.

[mklinker]

Indiana just moved to the district model and the only differences that I noticed this year were different lighting, no big black curtain and a smaller screen for video. In my opinion this was a very smart financial move and in NO WAY impacted the professionalism or the prestige of the event.

I must also admit that Indiana has some of the largest HS gyms in the country so the venue size is not an issue.

If sponsor donates based upon a venue they are missing out on the purpose of FIRST. Our sponsors donate because of the impact upon the students.

[Sunshine]

Katie,
Was not singling out Kevin. The two of us have a good working relationship I believe. He started the thread and I had specific questions about his experience. Mentioning his name directly doesn't mean I'm singling him out or I'm attempting to degrade him or your team. That is not my attempt. UPS has a very strong history, we all know that. Kevin has great insight because of his experiences. I value the input so we can all digest the input from the discussion.

Many on this thread have experience with district events and they are in favor of the change. I'm just trying to figure out the reasoning behind their views. If it is strictly financial I don't buy into it. IMHO a big part (being redundant now) in the overall experience for kids is getting out and raising $$. At least that is our model and I believe that is why they offer an entrepreneur award.

Still digesting the notion that kids get a better experience from more matches while attending district events. That seems to be the main qualifier as to why most feel it's better. We attend two regionals for this very reason. We think kids deserve more completion time after all the hard work. But it's not just the "on the field" experience we strive for. It's the extended pit experience; the interaction with judges and their peers; even the traveling experience. It's all good. I want to hear more! Our kids get to present twice for chairman's. Do you get this with district? I don't know. The list goes on.........

[Lil' Lavery]

A lot of what I wanted to say has been pointed out already. I am a staunch supporter of districts, but I also believe that a lot of Kevin's gripes can be addressed outside of the district system. Just as I was back in 2009. People forget what a radical change districts were when they first appeared, and how much of that has transitioned into the regional experience. Instead of crating and shipping our robots to our local events, we bag and tag them. While the amount of matches per event is still a concern, 7-8 per team used to be the norm regardless of event size. Running 12 matches was unheard of, even at small events.

The regional experience can be further improved independent of which areas become districts. FIRST HQ can make outlines to regional planning committees, regional directors, and FTAs more clear on the quantities of matches to be run. FIRST HQ can make outlines to the judges advisors about how to distribute judges. If anything, this sounds like a great place for input by the FRC team advocate*.

*I have no idea what the FRC team advocate does on a day-to-day basis or if they would actually have any say on this matter, but it at least fits the job title

I'd also like to point out that there are district events held in venues other than high school gyms. When affordable, college stadiums/athletic facilities are still venues at the district level. I know of events at UMASS-Dartmouth, Northeastern, WPI, Rutgers, NJIT, and Purdue off the top of my head. I'm sure there have been some in Michigan and PNW as well.

While a supporter of districts, I do want to point out that the production/AV losses can be more significant than some are letting on, at least initially. MAR has improved significantly in the AV department over the years, but the first season had projectors without suitable power, audio equipment that wasn't audible in portions of venues, poor quality webcasts, and the lack of production value at the MAR Championship event has lagged behind that of regionals ever since Show Ready stopped providing it. This is to be expected, and things have improved dramatically as MAR learned what needed to be fixed and people gained experience in how to fix it. Hopefully the lessons learned from each existing district can help smooth the learning curve even more for future districts.

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Many on this thread have experience with district events and they are in favor of the change. I'm just trying to figure out the reasoning behind their views. If it is strictly financial I don't buy into it. IMHO a big part (being redundant now) in the overall experience for kids is getting out and raising $$. At least that is our model and I believe that is why they offer an entrepreneur award.

The entrepeneurship award can still exist even if the fundraising goal is changed. Some arbitrary value on the amount that needs to be raised in funds doesn't remove that experience from the equation.

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Our kids get to present twice for chairman's. Do you get this with district? I don't know. The list goes on.........

Yes, you still can present Chairman's at each event you attend (unless you win your first one).