Canburglar Safety

[MichaelBick]

Originally Posted by asid61

IIRC there were teams at SVR going for handle grabs (5076 or some team around there). We can do this ourselves with consistency, and at a speed considerably faster than anything I've seen so far (we didn't use this at SVR due to unforseen geometry issues). It's a little faster for the effort/power because there is no need to telescope (not to mention the weight is lower), but I will admit it's harder to line up than a center grab. Thanks for directing me to 971's grab, it looks interesting.
It remains to be seen what champs will look like.

If you pivot from the very bottom corners, there is no need to telescope. That said, inertia is still higher.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by asid61

IIRC there were teams at SVR going for handle grabs (5076 or some team around there). We can do this ourselves with consistency, and at a speed considerably faster than anything I've seen so far (we didn't use this at SVR due to unforseen geometry issues). It's a little faster for the effort/power because there is no need to telescope (not to mention the weight is lower), but I will admit it's harder to line up than a center grab. Thanks for directing me to 971's grab, it looks interesting.
It remains to be seen what champs will look like.

You don't *have* to telescope to reach both bins, it's a function of where your burgular pivot points rest and how wide you can make your setup. Ultimately, ignoring inertia for a moment, the hole ends up being faster because it is slightly higher off the ground, thus you travel less angular distance to reach it. Of course, reality doesn't ignore inertia.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by themccannman

Much smaller target to hit, it's inherently less reliable. Also see 971, it's easy to angle your hooks so that the cans get knocked off as soon as your hooks hit.

We came up with a neat hook design that hits the top of the lid somewhere and causes the hook to pivot forward and grab the handle. It could engage very quickly.

[faust1706]

Originally Posted by JVN

Are these high energy, super fast canburglars safe?
Depends who you ask. Safe is not quantifiable. Safe is not defined in the manual. Safe is relative.

One could quantify the safety of these mechanisms by measuring how much force they can produce...but you're absolutely right. I'm waiting for teams to go back to winches like many shooters last year had, if they haven't already. One could impose a limit to how much potential energy can be stored upon loading a robot onto the field maybe?

Originally Posted by Basel A

None of your programmers have ever accidentally started the robot in practise mode and run auton without intending to?

Oh lord, at an open house 2 years ago we were demoing our robot. Something happened and it started our vision assisted autonomous. The vision system tracked metal picture frame about 20 feet away, auto lined up to it and nailed it perfectly with all 3 shots, shattering the glass. The principle was more impressed than upset. There's a video of it somewhere....

Originally Posted by Bennett548

Stored energy in the form of springs is naturally the next thing to turn to. Unfortunately, I believe that these spring loaded designs are going to lead to much more dangerous situations.

I think if there are no limitations to the amount of potential energy allowed while loading, teams will be able to at the start of autonomous release their winch design and start driving forward at the same time and still get them.

I anxious to see if there will be a gentleman's agreement at the highest level in which each team gets two center bins, but that most likely won't happen. Citrus Curcuits, 1114, 2056, 254, 118, and many other elite teams will allow for einstein teams to have 2 canburglar robots and a 3 tote autonomous robot.

[IronicDeadBird]

What we are making inherently is not safe. If making robots was a safe thing to do then we wouldn't have so many rules. In my opinion if your design is justified then safety in that situation is not only making the design as safe to handle as possible, but it also includes being around it. Securing springs, monitoring air pressure, safety isn't just making things not hurt, its about stopping the situations that get people hurt.
This is from the experience of having a can burglar on our robot that straight up scares me and being in charge of field reset for our teams drive practice.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by JVN

Who will determine which canburglars are safe? ...

Will the World Championship be determined by an inspector's subjective decision that 118's canburglar is safe, but 254's isn't?

Never fear, John.

Robot inspectors have lead robot inspectors to turn to when it is not obvious how to decide what is or is not allowed by the rules. A team that does not agree with their robot inspector's decision can also turn to the lead robot inspector. Lead robot inspectors have weekly conference calls. The leader of all the lead robot inspectors reads CD frequently. As does the leader of the FRC.

I count several layers of backup. Bring on those energetic burglars.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

Never fear, John.

Robot inspectors have lead robot inspectors to turn to when it is not obvious how to decide what is or is not allowed by the rules. A team that does not agree with their robot inspector's decision can also turn to the lead robot inspector. Lead robot inspectors have weekly conference calls. The leader of all the lead robot inspectors reads CD frequently. As does the leader of the FRC.

I count several layers of backup. Bring on those energetic burglars.

No argument on the appeals process. But given that inconsistency in rules enforcement at Worlds is anything but new, this is a reasonable concern for the year. Fortunately the real showdown this year will likely be at such a high level and within such a small and professionally inter-related group of teams that they'll be able to cross-check. (Certainly JVN must be well versed in navigating through the RI system.)

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

Never fear, John.

Robot inspectors have lead robot inspectors to turn to when it is not obvious how to decide what is or is not allowed by the rules. A team that does not agree with their robot inspector's decision can also turn to the lead robot inspector. Lead robot inspectors have weekly conference calls. The leader of all the lead robot inspectors reads CD frequently. As does the leader of the FRC.

I count several layers of backup. Bring on those energetic burglars.

NEVER any fear here -- especially because I've never been accused of being energetic.
(Also, our robot tether isn't allowed in the auto zone pre-match, so the Batman as a Canburglar isn't really a thing.)

[Cash4587]

We can't have a canburglar either There are pros and cons of having a tether.. Ratman is pretty much confined to the feeder area.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by JVN

NEVER any fear here -- especially because I've never been accused of being energetic.

From what I've seen, your energy is deceptively high, John.

However, I was thinking about the concern you expressed for the top-tier canburglars. And I really do expect to see the best of them facing off at Einstein (the much-better-than-OK corral) to see who is quickest on the autonomous draw. The teams that get there will be quite experienced at developing effective, reliable, AND safe robots.

[Hallry]

In Semifinal 3 at the Silicon Valley Regional, part of 4486's canburglar caught onto a canburglar 'net' of 2485 on the opposing alliance and tossed it up into the air, before it landed next to the alliance station wall on the field. While it was wild to watch, it wouldn't have been too safe if it had flown off in a different direction and landed outside of the field.

It occurs at 2:10:36 here: http://new.livestream.com/accounts/1...events/3935043

[BethMo]

Originally Posted by Hallry

It occurs at 2:10:36 here: http://new.livestream.com/accounts/1...events/3935043

That video only goes to 1:45:55 for me. Where's the rest?

[mott]

Originally Posted by BethMo

That video only goes to 1:45:55 for me. Where's the rest?

You need to scroll down the page to the last video of the playoffs/awards.

[Pretzel]

Originally Posted by Bennett548

As noted by Frank in his recent blog entry canburglars have the potential to be dangerous. We need to make sure to reduce or eliminate the danger of these devices.

We insert a steel pin into the linkage that drives our burglars when the robot is on the cart, and the pins are tied to the cart so they can't be forgotten before a match. We also unplug the motors when we know we won't be using them for a while, in case somebody forgets to put in the pins.

What is your team doing to make your canburglars safer?

Has anyone had an inspector bring up a canburglar safety issue yet?

Our canburglar is held, when not in use, by two 60 lb pull neodymium magnets on each arm, plus a mechanical lock that engages once the arms are fully retracted. The motor is physically incapable of pulling the arms just off the magnets, much less off the magnets and out of the locking mechanism. We feel that, since it takes two people to even pull the canburglar from its rest position (and it has already been tested through the rigors of slamming repeatedly into an alliance wall to dislodge a stuck tote), it's a near-impossibility for it to fall and injure someone out of the blue. The hooks also rest inside our frame perimeter, despite an optical illusion that makes them appear far outside it, so there are no similar concerns of people standing up into them.

The only concern is to keep phones, computers, and buttons away from the magnets! My driver button was attracted to them, pulling my shirt with it, from around five inches away and I was convinced I'd gotten myself hooked on something until I looked more closely.

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by Pretzel

Our canburglar is held, when not in use, by two 60 lb pull neodymium magnets on each arm, plus a mechanical lock that engages once the arms are fully retracted. The motor is physically incapable of pulling the arms just off the magnets, much less off the magnets and out of the locking mechanism. We feel that, since it takes two people to even pull the canburglar from its rest position (and it has already been tested through the rigors of slamming repeatedly into an alliance wall to dislodge a stuck tote), it's a near-impossibility for it to fall and injure someone out of the blue. The hooks also rest inside our frame perimeter, despite an optical illusion that makes them appear far outside it, so there are no similar concerns of people standing up into them.

The only concern is to keep phones, computers, and buttons away from the magnets! My driver button was attracted to them, pulling my shirt with it, from around five inches away and I was convinced I'd gotten myself hooked on something until I looked more closely.

So you made your arms safer by instead introducing a pinch point that would destroy whatever appendage happens to get caught between them?