PNW Exhibition Match Concerns

[BrendanB]

I wish more events (specifically District Championships due to the high level of play on the field even more so than most Championship divisions) would consider playing a special match like this.

It was a cool match to watch and while yes some teams are getting additional "practice time" this is something you really can't eliminate in FRC to completely make the playing field even. At the Championship full practice matches are run in the pits and I know last year many teams were working together to schedule matches at the same time so they could spent 6-8 minutes of teleop match time (I believe those matches were longer than normal) practicing complicated maneuvers they wanted to pull off during qualification matches.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by Racer26

See, I always thought the twinned regionals (ie. GTREast/West when they were in the same venue, a couple in MN and a few others over the years) should have had a Exhibition match of the winning alliance from both regionals to crown an ultimate winner. I don't think people would decry that as unfair.

IIRC MN has done that in the past.

[BrendanB]

If you want to talk about unfair advantages in FRC I'm surprised no one has brought up alliance selections at the Championship this year being moved to first thing on Saturday morning at 7:30am and qualification matches ending tentatively at 6pm on Friday. With Elimination rounds starting at 9am this gives the first seed in each division a huge advantage over the rest of the playing field because they have all of Friday night and first thing Saturday morning to plan with their first pick for strategy, third picks, and potential elimination cheesecakes and have more time to pull it all off since they don't play until the 4th quarterfinal matchup. Everyone else has 30 minutes at best before they need to be on the field or in the que line for their first match.

I know the FRC playing field can never be even and that it takes a lot of hard work and dedication to make it to the number 1 spot in your division, but I feel like this year there is an unfair advantage given to that alliance that shouldn't be there.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

<snip>

Huh. Right you are. I guess that is a situation few have considered. I mean, in the past, it would have been difficult to predict who was going to seed number 1 (well, with a few notable exceptions), but the teams who are routinely at the top generally have plans for that anyway, and often know what to expect.

Does this give them a few extra hours to think about it and make plans -- and at CMP potentially get practice field matches together? I guess it does.

[MikLast]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

If you want to talk about unfair advantages in FRC I'm surprised no one has brought up alliance selections at the Championship this year being moved to first thing on Saturday morning at 7:30am and qualification matches ending tentatively at 6pm on Friday. With Elimination rounds starting at 9am this gives the first seed in each division a huge advantage over the rest of the playing field because they have all of Friday night and first thing Saturday morning to plan with their first pick for strategy, third picks, and potential elimination cheesecakes and have more time to pull it all off since they don't play until the 4th quarterfinal matchup. Everyone else has 30 minutes at best before they need to be on the field or in the que line for their first match.

I know the FRC playing field can never be even and that it takes a lot of hard work and dedication to make it to the number 1 spot in your division, but I feel like this year there is an unfair advantage given to that alliance that shouldn't be there.

Where is this happening at? Almost all of the events i have watched did nothing like that...

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by MikLast

Where is this happening at? Almost all of the events i have watched did nothing like that...

It hasn't because the Championship in St. Louis is moving to a new format to allow for 8 divisional elimination rounds and an 8 alliance Einstein Finals after lunch (when eliminations would have normally started).

This is the first time, at least to my knowledge, of an event running this type of format (alliance selections first thing on Saturday morning).

During some years this typically isn't an issue however with modifying robots for ramps and canburglers this year it creates a new dynamic like we only saw a little of in 2011 (minibots) & 2013 (blockers).

[cglrcng]

Hmmm, someone actually put into practice what I would have liked to have witnessed at Las Vegas last week. I guess if not in the actual match, one could think extra practice could make a bit more perfect (or better). But, those Alliances have a snow balls chance in a bad place of actually getting together for playoffs, so each just received a couple minutes of practice at the expense of others, and also did actually take more damage risks also.

I can see the points of both pro & con, and both angles to any extra matches during the show, instead of after the show. (I would have placed that match after personally, taken the extra 10 minutes there).

It does show off the real strengths of your regional or division event though. Just looking at the PNW Championships scoring this weekend vs. any Regional on the schedule...Once you "separate the wheat from the chaff" so to speak, the Qualifying there, actually looks like the Playoffs, at any Regional it appears. (Can't wait to see if the natural increase & jump in scores acheived in the playoffs remains the same, or if they just transfer equally in that particular event later today).

What does that do except pump up the OPR's of those involved (more natural inflation of the fields involved), just proving "If you don't actually witness w/ your eyes" your robot scouting this year, the numbers won't show you what is real, from what is actually inflated by the best of the lot, or deflated by the least of the lot also.

_______________
Then I watched the video...Qualifyers 135 vs. 246 just gave them each more practice, it did not necessarily show the real possible strengths. 123 vs 456 may just have if all were complementary bots to one another. The 2 can burglars had that match won w/ 126 left on the clock....Both Alliances can stack beautifully. Now, mix up the 2 can burglars 1 for each side, or 2 vs 2, and lets see the scores of both sides soar into that 200 point range. It just shows that you need to not allow either side an uneven advantage in those stack multiplyers. (Or grab it really quickly). The can wars (7 vs. 3 is very off balanced), will be won by the best and fastest at Champs. (But, I suspect those wars may be mighty costly also sometimes!)

It does prove, that if not an accurate and often winning can burglar yourselves, and qualified #1, that you better take one as your first pick in the choices dept., and it better also be a great stacker too! If you wait, the best of the best can burglars may be gone by the time your second pick rolls around. (So, that gives an edge to those that designed to steal well those cans from the beginning, or cheesecaked for shelf can accuracy later!)

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

If you want to talk about unfair advantages in FRC I'm surprised no one has brought up alliance selections at the Championship this year being moved to first thing on Saturday morning at 7:30am and qualification matches ending tentatively at 6pm on Friday. With Elimination rounds starting at 9am this gives the first seed in each division a huge advantage over the rest of the playing field because they have all of Friday night and first thing Saturday morning to plan with their first pick for strategy, third picks, and potential elimination cheesecakes and have more time to pull it all off since they don't play until the 4th quarterfinal matchup. Everyone else has 30 minutes at best before they need to be on the field or in the que line for their first match.

The difference is this is an offical rule that all teams know about before the event. All teams know there is a sizable advantage to seeding #1 and can make the necessary decisions now. (Plus, with the serpentine alliance selection, I'm find with giving the #1 seed an additional advantage).

I do agree there is an unfair advantage to the type of exhibition at the PNW championship. The fun exhibition could have an affect on the actual competition. That being said, I'm not sure the negatives outweigh the positives.

[Foster]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

If you want to talk about unfair advantages in FRC I'm surprised no one has brought up alliance selections at the Championship this year being moved to first thing on Saturday morning at 7:30am and qualification matches ending tentatively at 6pm on Friday. With Elimination rounds starting at 9am this gives the first seed in each division a huge advantage over the rest of the playing field because they have all of Friday night and first thing Saturday morning to plan with their first pick for strategy, third picks, and potential elimination cheesecakes and have more time to pull it all off since they don't play until the 4th quarterfinal matchup. Everyone else has 30 minutes at best before they need to be on the field or in the que line for their first match.

Sorry, I'm new here, I don't get why this is an issue. Are you saying that seeds 2-15 are not coming to the selection with their lists of first picks, third picks, etc? From what I've seen at regional events these teams are set after an hour, some show up with multiple sheets of paper. It's been years since I've been to an event where the captain goes Ummm "1511, oh wait they've been picked, Ummm 327 Oh, sorry they are the seed that just picked, wait ....."

If anything I feel bad for the scouting teams, they will be playing What If all night instead of getting some sleep. I expect everyone will show up with huge decision trees of choices.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Foster

Sorry, I'm new here, I don't get why this is an issue. Are you saying that seeds 2-15 are not coming to the selection with their lists of first picks, third picks, etc? From what I've seen at regional events these teams are set after an hour, some show up with multiple sheets of paper. It's been years since I've been to an event where the captain goes Ummm "1511, oh wait they've been picked, Ummm 327 Oh, sorry they are the seed that just picked, wait ....."

If anything I feel bad for the scouting teams, they will be playing What If all night instead of getting some sleep. I expect everyone will show up with huge decision trees of choices.

The first, and oftentimes second and third captains will know who their first robots will be before alliance selection happens, wheras 4 through 8 don't have that luxury. In the traditional lunchtime alliance selection format it's not a huge advantage since it's not much extra time, but since allaince selections are first thing Saturday morning the top seeds are given a massive advantage in planning match strategy and especially in planning subsequent picks. It would probably even make sense for them to do their scouting meetings Friday night together, while the lower seeds can't since they won't know who they'll be playing with.

[Mr. Tatorscout]

If anything I feel bad for the scouting teams, they will be playing What If all night instead of getting some sleep. I expect everyone will show up with huge decision trees of choices.

To be honest, I don't recall a Champs where our scout team wasn't up all night playing what if. This might make it easier because you don't have the factor of "what if someone breaks down or gets significantly better Saturday morning?" in your discussions.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Racer26

See, I always thought the twinned regionals (ie. GTREast/West when they were in the same venue, a couple in MN and a few others over the years) should have had a Exhibition match of the winning alliance from both regionals to crown an ultimate winner. I don't think people would decry that as unfair.

We do this in Duluth every year, and it's always a fantastic match. We don't do it in Minneapolis for a variety of reasons.

[Isaac Ash]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

We do this in Duluth every year, and it's always a fantastic match. We don't do it in Minneapolis for a variety of reasons.

Would you mind going into the reasons? I would have loved to see 525 and 2502 go up against Wave.

[MrRoboSteve]

Originally Posted by AshTestDummy

Would you mind going into the reasons? I would have loved to see 525 and 2502 go up against Wave.

I enjoy the Double DECCer match (Duluth) and would like to see it in Minneapolis.

While I'm not privy to the reason for no final exhibition match in Minneapolis, I'll guess that it's related to the venue arrangement. In Duluth, the fields are in the same arena, separated by a curtain. In Minneapolis, they're in different buildings. While they're across the street from each other, the ramp entrances used by the robots are about four blocks apart, separated by a street that carries probably 20,000 cars a day.

[PVCpirate]

I don't have a problem with the exhibition match because it's a district championship event. Every team there has played at least 24 matches already this season, most of them more because of eliminations. I don't think one extra match gives them enough of an advantage to outweigh the fun of that match at the end of the day. However, if this is at a large regional with 8-9 matches per team, I wouldn't be a fan because some teams will only attend that event.